The Second man,height 5ft 11ins had a clay pipe

[Natalie Severn]

It continues to puzzle me that this taller man,standing on the opposite side of Berner Street, actually gave chase to Schwartz.The smaller man who was attacking Stride apparently looked up and shouted "Lipski" and just after this this the taller man gave chase---- Schwartz claims he stopped before the railway bridge.
At first glance,this looks as though these two men are working together.They are both outside the Berner Street Club,one on one side the other standing lighting his pipe on the opposite side, one atttacking a woman who was soliciting,while shouting over to the other who then chases off a passer by .
Two men working together?

[c.d.]

Hi Natalie,

I am not sure that we can eliminate the possibility that the Pipe Man might have believed that "Lipski" was directed at him and was thus avoiding a confrontation with the BS man. I think the bigger quesion is why did the Pipe Man quit running? If he was intent on catching Schwartz and eliminating a witness, why stop running?

Also, the act of lighting a pipe strikes me as quite casual for someone on lookout duty who was ready to spring into action if needed.

c.d.

[Natalie Severn]

Schwartz didnt experience it like that though.He was pretty sure he was being chased by the taller of the two men.He also believed that the man attacking Stride was calling out to Pipeman.In the news report Schwartz states the second,taller man actually had a knife in his hand and rushed forward as if to attack him.

[c.d.]

Hi Natalie,

Yes, but that is simply Schwartz's interpretation of what took place.

Also, if BS and Pipe Man were working in tandem, why let a witness to a murder escape especially if the Pipe Man had a knife?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

At the time the Start reporter sat down with Schwartz and his interpreter, the IWEC was swarmed with hostile police eager to pin the rap on them. Since Schwartz was quite likely a member or sympathizer of the club, and his interpeter (who may have been William Wess) may have been as well, Pipeman's transformation into a knife wielding Irishman may be easy to explain, since it takes all suspicion off a Jewish clubman.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Ah! but some people did jump bail in 1888 c.d.We know that for a fact!

[The Grave Maurice]

We don't have a diagram of Berner Street, do we? In my mind, I always see the Pipe Man standing outside a beer shop on the west side of the street, i.e., the same side as BS and the IWEC, and then crossing the street to chase Schwartz. Was there a beer shop on the east side of Berner Street? I thought that there was only a school between the point opposite the IWEC and the corner of Fairclough Street.

[c.d.]

Ah! but some people did jump bail in 1888 c.d.We know that for a fact!

Your Tumblety (?) reference eludes me here on this thread, Natalie.

c.d.

[Cap'n Jack]

'At the time the Start reporter sat down with Schwartz and his interpreter, the IWEC was swarmed with hostile police eager to pin the rap on them. Since Schwartz was quite likely a member or sympathizer of the club, and his interpeter (who may have been William Wess) may have been as well, Pipeman's transformation into a knife wielding Irishman may be easy to explain, since it takes all suspicion off a Jewish clubman. '

Tom, you at your best.
Three times 'may'.
'Quite likely'?
In other words, Schwartz had absolutely no connection to the IWEC.
His interpreter was not Wess.
And Michael Kidney was a knife wielding Irishman.
Remind me not to buy anything from you on the doorstep.

[Natalie Severn]

That is a definite possibility, Tom.However,when Schwartz first spoke to the police he seems to have been genuinely frightened of the threatening atmosphere around the attack and of the man who he said chased him.
It may all have been a fabrication to deflect attention from the club members.
Do you happen to know whether there was a record of attendance that night---showing people who had been there earlier and left before the murder was discovered ?
Best
Natalie

[Ben]

I am not sure that we can eliminate the possibility that the Pipe Man might have believed that "Lipski" was directed at him and was thus avoiding a confrontation with the BS man.

Quite so, CD.

Pipeman may well have been another "witness" who didn't fancy tangling with surly, burly Broadshoulders any more than Schwartz did, and fled the scene accordingly.

[Natalie Severn]

Your Tumblety (?) reference eludes me here on this thread, Natalie.

c.d.

Seriously meant though c.d.
We really do not know yet whether Tumblety had a role to play in any of these murders-I am inclined to think he did-and so this tall man sounds interesting.
Cheers
Natalie

[Ben]

Pity Tumblety is a all-round misfit for the pipe-smoker, though, Nats. The height might have been similar, but nothing else matches, and old Tumbles certainly wasn't 35 in 1888.

[Tom_Wescott]

I always see the Pipe Man standing outside a beer shop on the west side of the street, i.e., the same side as BS and the IWEC,

This is accurate.

Do you happen to know whether there was a record of attendance that night---showing people who had been there earlier and left before the murder was discovered ?

Absolutely. I've just been sitting on it waiting for someone to ask. For the first time ever, here's the attendance list for the IWEC that night:

Israel Schwartz
Michael Kidney
Wilf Gregg
Melvin Harris (smoking pipe)
Andy Aliffe (foul mood, slightly tipsy)
Jack the Ripper
Unnamed man bearing torso
Dr. Twomblety
O.J. Simpson

I hope this helps.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

We don't have a diagram of Berner Street, do we? In my mind, I always see the Pipe Man standing outside a beer shop on the west side of the street, i.e., the same side as BS and the IWEC, and then crossing the street to chase Schwartz. Was there a beer shop on the east side of Berner Street? I thought that there was only a school between the point opposite the IWEC and the corner of Fairclough Street.

Thats a point....but as Tom says he dramatically changed his story for the press.Who knows,the police may have encouraged him to put the press on a Wild Goose chase,while they tried to work out what happened during the double event.