cwmafon

[claire]

In all probability, someone much smarter than me has discounted the possibility of MJK's coming from Cwmafon (the one next to Blaenavon)...if not by birth, then by migration. I know that Gareth had mentioned this some long time back (btw, I found the names of the 6 people killed in the Cwmafon incident in 1879; they didn't include a Davis/Davies, not that that means much), but I wondered if anyone had done any more digging/disproving.

I was just thinking about it, having recently spent a bit of time wandering round the visitors' centre at Blaenavon and flexing the credit card in the bookshops in the town; the communications between there and Cardiff were clearly good (not just for the steel/coal making their way to Cardiff, but also the passenger train via Pontypool); residents at the time spoke Welsh and English (in spite of the census noting that almost all were English speakers rather than Welsh, apparently, it seems as if one was only recorded as a Welsh speaker if that was the only language one spoke); blah blah blah.

It strikes me that the number of pit disasters that occurred in the wider area during the time that MJK would have been there may have been sufficient to lodge in her mind as a reasonable 'story' to tell. I checked out the widows' payouts for the incidents and none gave a lag of any more than four months between the event and the payout (setting the Cullen claim to doubt)...seems to me that bolting from Cwmafon to Cardiff would be quite a simple thing.

But, I am driveling on as usual. So, please update me and tell me that the Cwmafon link has been disproven, to save me any more trawls around the blinking cemeteries and records offices.

One more thing...anyone done the police records for Cardiff from 1878-1884? I'm keen to know why she'd scarper from Cardiff...seems to me that plying your trade in one port is pretty much the same as plying it in any other. (Mind you, having been in Cardiff today, I can see her point.)

cheers me dears.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Claire,

You're quite right about the comms links between Cwm/Blaenafon and Cardiff at that time, and there's that "nest" of Kellys in nearby Bedwellty with known connections to one of the poorer Irish immigrant areas of Cardiff (Halket St). As brain-farts go, my speculating about "Cwmafon" doesn't strike me as particularly outlandish - even if I say so myself! - and it's not been ruled out yet, either. As far as I'm aware, the possibility remains open.

[claire]

Oh God. That means I won't be able to stop myself spending more pointless time, cash and energy wandering around in the rain and the cold. This was meant to be a holiday...

But seriously, I think it was a pretty good suggestion of yours. Then again, I would say that, wouldn't I? Don't suppose you'd be kind enough to provide a reference to the Bedwellty-Halket Street Kelly links, could you? <- meant to be a winning smile...

[Sam Flynn]

Don't suppose you'd be kind enough to provide a reference to the Bedwellty-Halket Street Kelly links, could you?

Here ya go, Claire:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=55202&postcount=5

And here are Bedwellty and Cwmafon ("Cwmavon") on the map. Bottom left and top right corners respectively:

[perrymason]

I cant believe my eyes....there are so many places on that link Sam that actually use some vowels in their names.

Someone once told me that the reason for the lack of Vowels in Welsh writing was because Consonants are free.

badump-bump........(I like that drum finish).

Best regards G

[claire]

Thanks, Sam...I'm just down the road from Cwmafon, but thanks for the map, too. One day I should print it out so I don't get lost coming back...somehow I can always find the place easily, but never find the right road out. Should tell me something (like, I've no sense of direction).

Michael, that was almost funny...almost

[Sam Flynn]

I cant believe my eyes....there are so many places on that link Sam that actually use some vowels in their names.

Actually, Mike, Welsh has more vowels than English - apart from "a e i o u", we also class "w" and "y" as vowels... because they bloody-well are vowels, that's why! Even in English, when you think about it. Without "y" and "w" being vowels, it would be rather difficult to pronounce "mystery", "down", "arrhythmia", "yawn" (etc, etc), wouldn't it? And, exotic though the word might be, there is even "syzygy" to contend with. I can't help it if the English haven't yet cottoned onto the fact that their "Canonical Five" vowels need a serious rethink!

[m_w_r]

Sam,

It's all very linguistic in here this evening. In English, w is pronounced "oo", and y is pronounced "ee", but not many people know that.

I get looked at in a funny way when I tell people this.

Regards,

Mark

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,

It's all very linguistic in here this evening. In English, w is pronounced "oo", and y is pronounced "ee", but not many people know that.

I get looked at in a funny way when I tell people this.

Don't stand for it, Mark!

[perrymason]

Actually, Mike, Welsh has more vowels than English - apart from "a e i o u", we also class "w" and "y" as vowels... because they bloody-well are vowels, that's why! Even in English, when you think about it. Without "y" and "w" being vowels, it would be rather difficult to pronounce "mystery", "down", "arrhythmia", "yawn" (etc, etc), wouldn't it? And, exotic though the word might be, there is even "syzygy" to contend with. I can't help it if the English haven't yet cottoned onto the fact that their "Canonical Five" vowels need a serious rethink!

Hi Gareth,

i didnt know that about the Welsh language,...it does explain quite a bit now that I do know. Thanks for that info my friend.

All the best SF

[Jonnieola]

Mary Kelly has always intrigued me, mainly because I live only a mile away from Cwmavon as it is written locally. Not many Welsh speakers here now. The area is full of old cottages that would no doubt have housed iron foundry workers, coal miners and ironstone miners. With Blaenavon only a few miles away and the many pits and ironworks in the vicinity surely this must be the likely area to find a woman of Irish descent with a Welsh coal miner husband named Davies? The influx of irish immigrants to the area at the time certainly suggests the possibility.

I know I haven't actually added anything to the discussion that is new but it is my first post and was wondering if anyone who is researching Mary needed any help from someone in the area. I plan to have a delve into the local Parish Records although doubtless I will be retracing work already undertaken by other people. I have several years experience in genealogy.

How likely do people think it is that Mary Jane Kelly was her real name?

I have added to this thread rather than start a new one.

Thanks.

Jon

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jon,

First of all, welcome to the boards.
I am one of those who doubt the name Mary Jane Kelly is her real one.
As regards any researching in the area, I may well be one who asks you for some help, at some time. I will also pass this on to a few others who may want to ask you as well. Most kind of you to offer. Thank you. Not sure if you are able to, but if you can send me your email addie, I will converse further about this there.

best wishes

Phil

[ChrisGeorge]

In all probability, someone much smarter than me has discounted the possibility of MJK's coming from Cwmafon (the one next to Blaenavon)...if not by birth, then by migration. I know that Gareth had mentioned this some long time back (btw, I found the names of the 6 people killed in the Cwmafon incident in 1879; they didn't include a Davis/Davies, not that that means much), but I wondered if anyone had done any more digging/disproving.

I was just thinking about it, having recently spent a bit of time wandering round the visitors' centre at Blaenavon and flexing the credit card in the bookshops in the town; the communications between there and Cardiff were clearly good (not just for the steel/coal making their way to Cardiff, but also the passenger train via Pontypool); residents at the time spoke Welsh and English (in spite of the census noting that almost all were English speakers rather than Welsh, apparently, it seems as if one was only recorded as a Welsh speaker if that was the only language one spoke); blah blah blah.

It strikes me that the number of pit disasters that occurred in the wider area during the time that MJK would have been there may have been sufficient to lodge in her mind as a reasonable 'story' to tell. I checked out the widows' payouts for the incidents and none gave a lag of any more than four months between the event and the payout (setting the Cullen claim to doubt)...seems to me that bolting from Cwmafon to Cardiff would be quite a simple thing.

But, I am driveling on as usual. So, please update me and tell me that the Cwmafon link has been disproven, to save me any more trawls around the blinking cemeteries and records offices.

One more thing...anyone done the police records for Cardiff from 1878-1884? I'm keen to know why she'd scarper from Cardiff...seems to me that plying your trade in one port is pretty much the same as plying it in any other. (Mind you, having been in Cardiff today, I can see her point.)

cheers me dears.

Hi Claire:

You wrote: "It strikes me that the number of pit disasters that occurred in the wider area during the time that MJK would have been there may have been sufficient to lodge in her mind as a reasonable 'story' to tell."

It's my belief that many of these women told stories about themselves to explain the circumstances in which they found themselves or else to make themselves seem more interesting. Liz Stride's story about losing her husband and children in the Princess Alice disaster is a case in point. MJK's story about having been in Paris is another example of a possible tall tale.

So I think you are correct. MJK need not have lost a husband named Davis or Davies in a Welsh mine disaster, Rather, she just had to tell the story to be believed and to elicit some sympathy.

All the best

Chris

[Jonnieola]

Hello Jon,

First of all, welcome to the boards.
I am one of those who doubt the name Mary Jane Kelly is her real one.
As regards any researching in the area, I may well be one who asks you for some help, at some time. I will also pass this on to a few others who may want to ask you as well. Most kind of you to offer. Thank you. Not sure if you are able to, but if you can send me your email addie, I will converse further about this there.

best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil. Unfortunately I think I lack the ability to PM and send you my e mail until I make 25 posts I think. I'm not sure if I join and become a Casebook Premium member whether the embargo will be lifted? I daresay I'll reach twenty five posts quite swiftly anyway. If I can be of help in anyway I will do my best. Currently rereading my books and the info I have on MJK.

Jon