Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Mary Jane Kelly: Oh, murder! - by Michael W Richards 17 minutes ago.
Cutbush, Superintendent Charles Henry: The Curtis Bennett Inquiry - by Robert 22 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: Trevor Marriot - "The Real Truth" - by Elamarna 46 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: Trevor Marriot - "The Real Truth" - by Trevor Marriott 1 hour and 10 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: Trevor Marriot - "The Real Truth" - by Elamarna 1 hour and 23 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: Trevor Marriot - "The Real Truth" - by PaulB 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Mary Jane Kelly: Oh, murder! - (43 posts)
Cutbush, Superintendent Charles Henry: The Curtis Bennett Inquiry - (34 posts)
Non-Fiction: Ripper Confidential by Tom Wescott (2017) - (30 posts)
Non-Fiction: Trevor Marriot - "The Real Truth" - (10 posts)
Non-Fiction: The Bank Holiday Murders by Tom Wescott (2014) - (3 posts)
Conferences and Meetings: Jack the Ripper East End Conference 2017: London - (3 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1301  
Old 03-17-2017, 03:39 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: north london
Posts: 2,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
I don´t agree because I think one needs to add elements to make your take work. It predisposes that Mizen surmised that the carmen were alerting him to respond to a fellow policemans call, although they dod not say a word about such a policeman.

In my take, there was no surmising, and no misunderstandings. Mizen was told that another PC awaited him and had called for assistance, and he answered to the call.

Neither version must be right or wrong, but it applies that my version is the one that works from what was said by Mizen, whereas yours adds the element of misunderstanding.

To be able to leave his beat, it would require that Mizen KNEW that he had been alerted by a fellow policeman, so to my mind, if there was any ambiguity at all, he would have asked.


Hi

I agree that is where we disagree, and maybe oneday, something will emerge that allows one of us to cross over.

cheers

Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1302  
Old 03-17-2017, 05:39 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 749
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Similarly, his responses at the inquest indicate that he was highly uncertain about Nichols physical state, with his observations ranging from "dead" to "not seriously injured".
I don't agree, John. Feeling her hands and face Lechmere thought she was dead, without being certain or knowing how this had happened. That no injuries were visible and that she looked to have been outraged and gone off in a swoon is in no way contradictory to the idea he had that she was dead.

All the best,
Frank
__________________
"You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1303  
Old 03-17-2017, 11:06 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 5,190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Have you considered the possibility that I DID understand, but thought you were wrong? No?

Then you should really try it.
Like I said Fisherman, you didn't seem to understand. Or didn't want to.

I'm sure that if I really had been wrong you wouldn't have needed to quote me out of context.

This whole discussion with you has definitely been one of the most pointless and unnecessary discussions that I have had on this forum.
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1304  
Old 03-17-2017, 11:17 AM
John G John G is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,372
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
I don't agree, John. Feeling her hands and face Lechmere thought she was dead, without being certain or knowing how this had happened. That no injuries were visible and that she looked to have been outraged and gone off in a swoon is in no way contradictory to the idea he had that she was dead.

All the best,
Frank
But he didn't say no injuries were visible. His evidence at the inquest is that he had no idea there were any serious injuries. And "gone off in a swoon", suggests she'd merely fainted, which is not the same as being dead.

What I think his inquest responses indicate is that he was a very poor communicator. Therefore, if he communicated in such a confused way to PC Mizen it would hardly be surprising that a misunderstanding occurred.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1305  
Old 03-17-2017, 11:25 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 14,043
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Like I said Fisherman, you didn't seem to understand. Or didn't want to.

I'm sure that if I really had been wrong you wouldn't have needed to quote me out of context.

This whole discussion with you has definitely been one of the most pointless and unnecessary discussions that I have had on this forum.

Grow up, David. You were not quoted out of context. You very clerly said that it was a fact that Mizen was told about death or drunkenness, and when I pointed it out,m you started to waffle about facts and established facts -as if they were different matters.

You must learn to accept that you do mistakes every now and then. It would be stranger if you didn´t, so there´s nothing much to be ashamed of.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1306  
Old 03-17-2017, 11:39 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 5,190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry View Post
David,
You will give examples?
I'll give you three examples.

1. At the Old Bailey trial of Talbot Bridgwater and others for deception and forgery in November 1905, a News of the World journalist, Henry Chanter, was called to give the following evidence to prove what had been said by prosecuting counsel in his opening speech:

"HENRY JAMES PROSSER CHANTER . I am a journalist, and among my other duties I occasionally report at the Westminster Police Court—I took a verbatim note in shorthand of the opening in the case against Bridgwater and others for "The News of the World," which would be published the following day—I cannot find my shorthand note—I transcribed it and saw the paper afterwards—I took Mr. Muir's speech down in the first person and transcribed it in the third person—this is correct (Produced).

Cross-examined by MR. CORNISH. I wrote what appeared in the paper within ten minutes of Mr. Muir's speech."


In case it is not clear, the word "Produced" here means that Chanter's newspaper report of the proceedings at Westminster Police Court was produced as evidence in the case.

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...?name=19051113

2. From the Western Morning News of 15 June 1899, reporting the trial at the Cornwall Assizes of Richard Henry Berryman for suborning and procuring Annie Bryant to commit perjury for him at the magistrate's court in Cambourne:

"H.B. Geeson, newspaper reporter, Penzance, produced notes of the report of these proceedings before the magistrates."

3. From the Cheshire Observer of 31 August 1878 reporting on a charge of perjury against William Lough, a police constable, at the Cheshire City Police Court:

"William Calder Grant said: I am a professional reporter, and was in the police court, reporting on Saturday, the 17th instant, when a charge was made against Peter Mitchell and others for a breach of the peace in Boughton. I took rough notes of that case sufficient for the purposes of my newspaper report. I heard Constable Lough give his evidence, and I heard him asked in cross-examination whether he had struck anyone. I produce my shorthand notes taken on that occasion, and find from them that Constable Lough said, "I did not use my staff, and did not see a staff used by any other policeman." After a witness named Maddocks had given his evidence Constable Lough was recalled and asked a question by the Mayor, who also called his attention to what Maddocks had said. In reference to that part I only have on my notes, "P.C. Lough denied using the stick."

By Mr. MARSHALL: I am not prepared to swear that the words "P.C. Lough denied using the stick" had reference to anything more than the alleged attack on Mitchell. I am under the impression that it referred to the general use of the stick.

Re-examined by Mr. CHUBTON: I have on my notes of Lough's arrest the words in reference to Mitchell, "I arrested him."

Arthur Smith: I am a reporter for a Chester newspaper, and was in court on Saturday, the 17th instant, when a charge was made against Peter Mitchell and others for a breach of the peace in Boughton. I took notes of that case sufficient for a newspaper report. I produce those notes. From them I find that Constable Lough in his examination in chief said, "I arrested him," meaning Mitchell. In cross-examination by Mr. Churton he said, "I did not use my staff, and I did not see any other policemen use my staffs." After a witness named Maddocks had given his evidence Constable Lough was recalled, and in reply to a question put by the Mayor, he said, "I did not strike anyone. The constable who was with me the whole time is here. I arrested the man. The crowd were trying to crush us into the fire."


Actually, that's four examples, there being two journalists giving evidence in the last case.
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.