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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #21  
Old 06-08-2018, 03:46 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I dont know if this has been posted and discussed previous but it is interesting nevertheless as to where Kelly`s second name came from

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Trevor, have you not read the testimonies of the Kelly Inquest?
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  #22  
Old 06-08-2018, 03:54 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
I have no idea except that I thought normally there were 18 lines with crowns stamped at the end of the line and these were filled in by hand with the names of the jurors,........
My copy of the original only shows 12 crowns in three columns of four. Plus one for the Coroner & one for the foreman (which was G Gieselme in the copy posted by Trevor).
Above these names the sentence mentions "names and seals" of the Juror's.
May represent a spot of wax with the crown pressed into it, to make a seal?
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  #23  
Old 06-09-2018, 12:21 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Thanks Jon.
I originally thought all the original hand written versions of these forms had 18 lines (plus the two for Coroner and foreman you mention) in three rows of six, all with a crown printed at the end and the jurors names penned in, but checking again I can see some have 15 or 12 lines too.
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Last edited by Debra A : 06-09-2018 at 12:35 AM.
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  #24  
Old 06-09-2018, 08:42 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Hi Debs.

The copy I have does not show a seal for the last name - Henry Dawkes, which is the 13th name (Juror), and is appended at the bottom of the first column (below John Harvey). There is a line drawn for Dawkes, but no crown printed against the line.
Which suggests to me there were only three columns of four (12) on the original, the line must have been added for this one juror, me thinks.

It's quite possible different counties created different forms. The one you saw with 18 lines may have been used in a different county?
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  #25  
Old 06-09-2018, 03:12 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Hi Debs.

The copy I have does not show a seal for the last name - Henry Dawkes, which is the 13th name (Juror), and is appended at the bottom of the first column (below John Harvey). There is a line drawn for Dawkes, but no crown printed against the line.
Which suggests to me there were only three columns of four (12) on the original, the line must have been added for this one juror, me thinks.

It's quite possible different counties created different forms. The one you saw with 18 lines may have been used in a different county?
Hi Jon,
No, they were all Middlesex from 1888 and I saw them all courtesy of Dave O' Flaherty.
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  #26  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:56 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Would one be a 'reserve' in case of sickness during the inquest ?
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  #27  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:05 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Incidentally , how did they choose jurors back then , anybody know ?
Property owners , electoral register ?
The names don't suggest anything compatible with the demographics of the area ...
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  #28  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:25 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
Incidentally , how did they choose jurors back then , anybody know ?
Property owners , electoral register ?
The names don't suggest anything compatible with the demographics of the area ...
Jury members usually came from one or two streets in the area the inquest was conducted.
There seems to be a fair few names from Shoreditch High Street there.
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  #29  
Old 06-12-2018, 09:02 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Jury members usually came from one or two streets in the area the inquest was conducted.
There seems to be a fair few names from Shoreditch High Street there.
Thanks Debs
Seems like Shop keepers /property owners then rather than a representative cross section of the general public like today . I suppose sending someone out to go and knock on business owners over a small area makes sense , quick and easy to arrange
Stride's inquest started on Oct 1st so they must have had a quick method of setting the wheels in motion
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  #30  
Old 06-13-2018, 05:14 AM
John Savage John Savage is offline
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Hi Debs

I believe the jurors would have been summoned personally by the coroner's officer. He would probably have used the electoral register or possibly local council records of ratepayers.

Basically throughout the 19th century the right to vote was based on the ownership or tenancy of property. To explain this in more detail I have taken the below from the internet:

"The 1867 Reform Act extended the borough franchise to all householders subject to a one year residential qualification and the payment of rates, and to lodgers occupying lodgings worth 10 per year subject also to one years residence. It extended the county franchise by including those occupying land worth 12 per year or owning land worth 5 a year. As a result, representation was increased for industrial centres and decreased for the smaller towns. Women and poor men were still denied the right to vote in Parliamentary elections. The passing of the Reform Act of 1867 doubled the electorate in Wales and England from one million to two million. However, there were about 30 million people in Britain at this time.
The 1884 Reform Act extended the 1867/68 householder and lodger franchise for boroughs/burghs to counties and created an occupation franchise for those with lands or tenements worth 12 a year. For the first time the franchise was substantially uniform in constituencies throughout Great Britain. This meant the vote was further extended across the male working class population"
Rgds
John
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