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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > Swanson, Chief Inspector Donald

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  #51  
Old 02-25-2011, 05:29 AM
The Good Michael The Good Michael is offline
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Errata,

In Kazakhstan, where I live, there are many Russians who define themselves as such... maybe all. They never say they are Kazakh because they aren't. They are Russians living in Kazakhstan. My guess is that Kosminski spoke Polish, lived in a Poland that was somewhat hostile to its Russian master, and identified himself as Polish. No way would he say he was Russian. I'm sure he didn't define himself as Russian Orthodox either though that was the religion of most Russians, nor as Catholic, though that was the main Polish religion. I'm sure it doesn't even matter. A suspect is a suspect.

Mike
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  #52  
Old 02-25-2011, 05:51 AM
Errata Errata is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Good Michael View Post
Errata,

In Kazakhstan, where I live, there are many Russians who define themselves as such... maybe all. They never say they are Kazakh because they aren't. They are Russians living in Kazakhstan. My guess is that Kosminski spoke Polish, lived in a Poland that was somewhat hostile to its Russian master, and identified himself as Polish. No way would he say he was Russian. I'm sure he didn't define himself as Russian Orthodox either though that was the religion of most Russians, nor as Catholic, though that was the main Polish religion. I'm sure it doesn't even matter. A suspect is a suspect.

Mike
True enough. The only reason it would be a consideration is that it is entirely possible for someone from his town to identify themselves as Russian, like my grandmother. And if that were the case it would be extraordinary for Anderson to find out he was from Poland if he identified as Russian. Is all.

I wonder if he did speak Polish? My grandmother spoke Russian, but spoke the Polish Yiddish dialect. I had assumed that was the norm, but for all I know my family moved to a Russian neighborhood in New York and that's why she spoke Russian. Hmm. Well thats probably neither here nor there.
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  #53  
Old 02-25-2011, 06:27 AM
Raoul's Obsession Raoul's Obsession is offline
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I think you two are about 90% in agreemetn and 10% in disagreement. By the sounds of it, you are both arguing from almost the same position but somehow are trying to disagree.

Errata, I take you point about phenotype/stereotype. In all likelihood, what was written on someone's birth certificate, or what nationality they personally thought themselves to be, never came into Anderson's thought process. I think it would be enough to say that the people from a relatively diverse geographical area that was quite different from London would all have been bundled together in the type of generalised statements that he was making. People are much better at telling appart groups within their own culture/country than people from other cultures/countries & racial groups. There's plenty of evidence on that. I think it is just because we are more used to making distinctions between our own group. Overall, Polish or Russian - I doubt Anderson cared.

(this is in no way trying to say there are no actual differences and no offense is meant to anyone. As someone from Luxembourg I wouldn't want you to call me Belgium).

Raoul
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  #54  
Old 02-25-2011, 08:35 AM
Chris Chris is offline
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Errata

Call me simple-minded, but I suggest that by "Polish" Anderson simply meant someone from Poland - and the fact that Poland was occupied by other powers at that time was evidently no bar to that usage, or he wouldn't have used it!
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  #55  
Old 02-25-2011, 10:05 AM
harry harry is offline
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When a person visits or immigrates to another country,his nationality is accepted to be what his documents declare him to be.Normally,but not always,todays traveller or immigrant uses a passport.If a person has dual citizenship, and is entitled to have two passports,it is the one that is presented on arrival that determines what nationality he will be known by,in the country in which he lands.England of the 1800's,would I believe,be very similar.
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  #56  
Old 02-25-2011, 03:46 PM
robhouse robhouse is offline
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I think people still thought of Poland, if not as an independent country, at least as a fairly well defined area within Russia. See below, a close up of Isaac Abrahams' 1891 census entry, which lists "where born" as "Poland Russia."

Incidentally, I do not know what language would have been spoken in Klodawa at that time. I assume Polish, but it is possible that the people there spoke German. I think I remember reading that the people in a nearby Polish town (Kolo?) spoke German generally.
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  #57  
Old 03-29-2012, 02:29 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Scott View Post
With regard to the Hove Seaside home the page below might be of interest:

http://www.stgeorgesharrogate.org/stg01gurney.htm
Hi Chris,

It's still going & has been expanded greatly over the years. I spent a very pleasant period of convalescence there in late 2001 & the facilities are top class.

Best Wishes, Bridewell.
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  #58  
Old 10-10-2012, 11:43 AM
PaulWilliams PaulWilliams is offline
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I attach a newspaper clipping stating that James Munro made a donation to the Police Seaside Home in 1891.
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  #59  
Old 10-10-2012, 08:18 PM
The Good Michael The Good Michael is offline
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Paul,

Thanks for the post. Call me thick, but this is the first time that I read that the Police Seaside Home was for only Metro police. Or at least I don't remember seeing it in print before.

Mike
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  #60  
Old 11-18-2012, 03:20 PM
Lechmere Lechmere is offline
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Kosminsky was born in Klodowa which is in present day Poland.
In 1815, following the Congress of Vienna Poland was made an autonomous kingdom within Tsarist Russia. Klodowa was unambiguously within the Kingdom of Poland and the non Jewish inhabitants would have overwhelmingly spoken Polish.
Russia abolished this status in 1867 and incorporated Poland into Russia. However the name of the territory was not changed until 1888 (!), from when Russia called it Privislinsky Krai, which means Vistula Land (after the main river). However it was still colloquially called Poland in the west and one of the Tsarís titles remained Tsar of Poland.
Hence during the period between Kosminskyís birth in 1865 and his emigration to England in about 1882, it would have been quite legitimate to say that he was born in Poland.
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