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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

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  #11  
Old 12-05-2012, 05:09 PM
Phil H Phil H is offline
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Didn't Mei Trow also argue that Jack abused an already dead or dying woman?

As, from my recollection, no one reported the murder until the man who found it - where does any evidence of additional wounds, position or blood come from?

Phil H

Last edited by Phil H : 12-05-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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  #12  
Old 12-05-2012, 05:50 PM
Tecs Tecs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil H View Post
Didn't Mei Trow also argue that Jack abused an already dead or dying woman?

As, from my recollection, no one reported the murder until the man who found it - where does any evidence of additional wounds, position or blood come from?

Phil H
Hi Phil,

It may have been, I was just thinking off the top of my head.

Alfred Crow saw the body at 3.30 but thought it was a sleeping drunk which was not uncommon.
It was then reported by the person who raised the alarm, John reeves, about an hour later. It was assumed for years that it was the better light that allowed him to see the blood etc and that a murder had taken place, but it may have been something else? If the body was stabbed once and lying a certain way, Crow may not have noticed anything amiss. But then if somebody else finds the body, stabs it repeatedly and arranges it (she was found with her legs open, typical Ripper style?) then it could make the murder obvious to whoever comes across it next. As nobody else reported going in or out then it may just have been coincidence that the next person to see her happened to do so in better light.


regards,
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Last edited by Tecs : 12-05-2012 at 06:03 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-05-2012, 09:46 PM
mikey559 mikey559 is offline
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Default Martha Tabram

Personally, I have never felt that Tabram was a victim of JTR. MO is very different. Evidence seems to show two weapons being used. If two weapons are used, then I would guess two killers (most likely the two soldiers she was seen with earlier). Just my humble opinion.

I think as we look at each victim, we must start with only one supposition based on the evidence and go forward from there. If it goes somewhere then follow it out. If it does not, go back to the evidence and make a new supposition. If we suppose this and then suppose that and then make another guess, we are following too many guesses which gets us nowhere or, leads us to the wrong place.

I have currently broken down the list of victims (in my own mind) into 3 seperate lists. Multiple killed by JTR, Multple killed by someone else and finally, probably one offs killed by multiple killers.
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  #14  
Old 12-05-2012, 09:55 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenDarkendale View Post
Why would the killer carry two knives of various lengths, and then use the "dagger" only once?
Carrying two knives of different lengths (different types), makes more sense than carrying two knives of the same length

eg:
"... and on the bag being examined it was found to contain a dagger, a clasp knife, two pairs of scissors, and two life-preservers."
Manchester Guardian, 15 Nov. 1888.

With Tabram, the use of the larger blade (dagger) through the heart was apparently intended to terminate the victim quickly.

Quote:
Or if we are talking two killers, two knives, why would one stab through the sternum deep into the body while the other stabbed 38 times all over the body?
Was the naive soldier trying to mutilate the woman with his personal knife (soldiers did carry military issue penknives), under the assumption he had successfully strangled her?
Then, his partner appeared on the scene and quickly silenced the suffering victim?

There are answers, but are they the right ones?

Regards, Jon S.
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  #15  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:15 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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I've always wondered if one of the knives was found, by the killer, on his victim. That might explain his starting with one knife and switching to another. That, too, is an answer, but not necessarily the right one.

Regards, Bridewell.
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  #16  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:43 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
Hi Michael,

Does that necessarily mean a different killer though? Could it not be the same killer, but armed with a different knife? It is the nature of the knife which determines the injuries which can be inflicted. I now speculate: If this was the killer's first murder it would also be the one from which he would learn the most, and the one following which he would, at some point, decide that he was going to kill again. At that stage a thinking killer would realise that eventually, if he persisted, he was likely to be stop-checked. In that event, his chances of escaping capture would be greatly improved if he was carrying a knife whose possession he could justify. For anyone but a soldier it would be difficult to justify carrying a stabbing weapon such as a bayonet, but much more easy to explain a knife whose design purpose was not that of a weapon of offence. I am not, therefore, discounting the possibility that the change of MO was brought about by the need to change to a different weapon. I am undecided on whether or not Tabram was a victim of the man who went on to kill Nichols and Chapman but an altered MO is not IMHO necessarily conclusive evidence that a different killer was involved.

Regards, Bridewell.
Hi Bridewell,

Martha was killed on the 7th and there was a Bank Holiday on the 6th, which meant that soldiers, active and retired, could wear uniforms and carry some smaller swords and bayonets legally. In this case we have a wound that could have been caused by a "bayonet" during the evening immediately following the Holiday. Its suggestive.

As to one killer using both a "pen knife", (which he used 37 times), and the bayonet, I believe its more probable that a second man used the larger instrument to deliver a final death blow....almost merciful when you consider she was alive and likely conscious for most of the stabs. The pen knife to me suggests that it was the only knife the killer had on him, its why he had to stab her so many times to kill her. Had he a larger knife, he likely would have used it and we would see far fewer wounds. She would have been obviously dying with just a few stabs of a large knife.

I believe the evidence, including the fact that we have a soldier seen waiting for a friend near where the incident occurred and we have a co-worker state they both had soldier clients that night, suggests that a second man was there or arrived to find his mate stabbing away and he finished the woman off to get the killer to leave quickly with him.

The bond between soldiers does not end when they leave the battlefield, I believe the second man assisted his comrade based on that bond.

Another way to look at this is statistically.....how often to killers in frenzied attacks switch weapons from one knife to another? My guess is that killers might switch weapons mid-kill, but it would likely be to acquire a blunt instrument to finish the victim. Switching from one knife to a larger knife for one stab, to me, sounds improbable.

Cheers BW
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  #17  
Old 12-05-2012, 11:50 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post

The bond between soldiers does not end when they leave the battlefield, I believe the second man assisted his comrade based on that bond.
Right, there is a quote somewhere from one soldier who explained that they would often switch uniforms just in case they got into trouble while out on the town. It would confuse any witnesses (description would not fit the rank, etc.), which apparently worked in this case too.

Regards, Jon S.
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  #18  
Old 12-06-2012, 08:08 AM
Steve S Steve S is offline
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I wish we knew...If the units involved had the new knife bayonet or the older triangular one...And when "a bayonet" was mentioned,which type was envisioned.........
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  #19  
Old 12-06-2012, 04:24 PM
RavenDarkendale RavenDarkendale is offline
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Let's think for a minute.

1) What if the stabber attacked an already dead or dying woman? Could this be JtR's start? This way, he doesn't have to subdue the woman to abuse her.

2) Why wasn't the other soldier tracked down an arrested if the murderer was a soldier? The knife stab through the sternum was a mercy kill, this leaves the other as a violent psycho who needed off the street and out of the military.

3) Looking back at two knives one killer, perhaps the bayonet/dagger was carried as either a kill before the frenzy or a coup de grace afterwards.

BTW, mikey559, I'd like to see your list. Sound intriguing.

My own would go something like this:

Smith: Killed by a gang
Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddows, Mackenzie, Coles: Probable JtR
Stride: Murder by person unknown
Kelly: Murder by person unknown
Mylett: Strangulation, probably not JtR.
Fairy Fay: No real evidence of existence
Milliwood: Possible JtR
Wilson: With wounds so similar to Tabram, a JtR possibility.
Farmer: Attack by person unknown. We have the same "JtR was interrupted" thing here that makes me question the murder of Stride
Jackson: Disposal of the body in the Thames makes this murder different from the accepted JtR MO
Brown: NYC. need to say more?
The Torso Killings indicate a second serial killer at large.

Feel free to agree or disagree and comment as you will. I have been convinced that
I was wrong before, and acknowledged the fact.

God Bless

Darkendale
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  #20  
Old 12-06-2012, 04:50 PM
Phil H Phil H is offline
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What if the stabber attacked an already dead or dying woman?

Is there any evidence that could support such a theory? many things could have happened to any of the victims - all COULD have been attacked by the same three men said to have assaulted Emma Smith - but there are no sightings.... so how would one take this forward?

Could this be JtR's start?

I agree "Jack" had to HAVE a first victim - but Nichols could have been that. No extreme mutilations - no one previously killed that way. Why postulate another?

This way, he doesn't have to subdue the woman to abuse her.

But why asume he could not subdue a woman if necessary. Martha would have been pretty drunk. Polly and Annie would have put up little resistance. Why go down this route at all?

Why wasn't the other soldier tracked down an arrested if the murderer was a soldier? The knife stab through the sternum was a mercy kill, this leaves the other as a violent psycho who needed off the street and out of the military.

The saga of Pearly Poll and the military has been set out many times. Is more necessary. We don't KNOW that the sternum thrust was first or last; a mercy stroke or part of a double assault (i.e. by two men).

Pearly Poll MAY have been frightened of someone or something.

Looking back at two knives one killer, perhaps the bayonet/dagger was carried as either a kill before the frenzy or a coup de grace afterwards.

Perhaps.

Smith: Killed by a gang

Are we sure of that? her story appears to have been doubted at the time 9and since).

Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddows, Mackenzie, Coles: Probable JtR

I'd exclude tabram and put question marks by Eddowes (I am aware of the potential Fenian angles ) and Coles (basically around lapsed time).

Stride: Murder by person unknown

Also my view. I have yet to fully discount Kidney.

Kelly: Murder by person unknown

I agree.

Mylett: Strangulation, probably not JtR.

Dunno.

Fairy Fay: No real evidence of existence NO evidence that she existed.

Milliwood: Possible JtR
Wilson: With wounds so similar to Tabram, a JtR possibility.


Unsure. Maybe.

Farmer: Attack by person unknown. We have the same "JtR was interrupted" thing here that makes me question the murder of Stride

Unsure.

Jackson: Disposal of the body in the Thames makes this murder different from the accepted JtR MO

No.

Brown: NYC. need to say more? No.

The Torso Killings indicate a second serial killer at large.

A second killer who was in all probability aware of "Jack" as suggested by the placing of the Pinchin St torso. But was JtR aware of the torso killer?

Phil H
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