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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

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  #431  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:40 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
I take your point, but to suggest there is not some similarity between the murders is debateable. There is the way she is posed, the way she is subdued before stabbing, the concentration on damaging the body rather than the focus on killing, the use of a knife, the neck and genital area focus (the one cut (as opposed to stabbing) of Martha Tabram was from her vagina), the same victim type (age and profession), the same locale, the same timing (both August 1888 and early hours of the morning). Of course this is not conclusive, but neither is it insubstantial.
exactly
the clincher for me with Tabram was the raised skirt, just like the others, showing a desire to expose the abdomen.
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  #432  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:44 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
the clincher for me with Tabram was the raised skirt, just like the others, showing a desire to expose the abdomen.
She probably died as a prostitute servicing a customer, Abby. Nothing mysterious about seeing a lifted skirt under such a circumstance.

And, if her killer was the Ripper, why expose the abdomen only to poke it with the knife a few times? The real JTR would have had a field day.
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  #433  
Old 10-13-2017, 10:11 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
She probably died as a prostitute servicing a customer, Abby. Nothing mysterious about seeing a lifted skirt under such a circumstance.

And, if her killer was the Ripper, why expose the abdomen only to poke it with the knife a few times? The real JTR would have had a field day.
Sam

Quote:
She probably died as a prostitute servicing a customer, Abby.
so were the others. and murder was very rare even in a place like WC at the time.

Quote:
Nothing mysterious about seeing a lifted skirt under such a circumstance.
except we all know that at that time the custom was to stand while carrying out the business. Like the others the focus on the abdomen was while they were already lying down from being incapacitated and the ripper had to raise the skirt to access it.

Quote:
And, if her killer was the Ripper, why expose the abdomen only to poke it with the knife a few times? The real JTR would have had a field day
.[/

because he hadn't reached his mature sig yet
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-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #434  
Old 10-13-2017, 10:18 AM
Sox Sox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
I take your point, but to suggest there is not some similarity between the murders is debateable. There is the way she is posed, the way she is subdued before stabbing, the concentration on damaging the body rather than the focus on killing, the use of a knife, the neck and genital area focus (the one cut (as opposed to stabbing) of Martha Tabram was from her vagina), the same victim type (age and profession), the same locale, the same timing (both August 1888 and early hours of the morning). Of course this is not conclusive, but neither is it insubstantial.
I'm sorry but insubstantial is exactly what it is, that and pure conjecture which is contrary to the facts. Over the years the water has been muddied enough, facts are few and far between in relation to these crimes so debating factual evidence is counter productive.

We have no evidence that Martha's corpse was posed, or that she was subdued. In fact all of her injuries were inflicted before she died, which brings me to the most important point. Jack the Ripper killed so that he could mutilate, Martha Tabram was stabbed thirty nine times before she died. According to the reports, the focus was on the breast and groin region, not the neck and genitals.

The two methods are, in fact, nothing alike at all. We see no progression between the method of killing Tabram & the method of killing Nichols. What we DO see is a totally different method. Tabram was stabbed to death, in all probability Nichols was strangled/suffocated. Tabram was not mutilated post mortem yet Nichols post mortem injuries were extensive.

I am more open than most on these forums to new ideas and exploring other avenues, but even I turn around when I see a blind alley.
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protohistorian-Where would we be without Stewart Evans or Paul Begg,Kieth Skinner, Martin Fido,or Donald Rumbelow?

Sox-Knee deep in Princes & Painters with Fenian ties who did not mutilate the women at the scene, but waited with baited breath outside the mortuary to carry out their evil plots before rushing home for tea with the wife...who would later poison them of course
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  #435  
Old 10-13-2017, 10:42 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
because he hadn't reached his mature sig yet
If this were the case, not only would he have to have reached maturity in a mere three weeks, but what he did would look nothing like what he did to Martha Tabram.
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  #436  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:21 AM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sox View Post
I'm sorry but insubstantial is exactly what it is, that and pure conjecture which is contrary to the facts. Over the years the water has been muddied enough, facts are few and far between in relation to these crimes so debating factual evidence is counter productive.

We have no evidence that Martha's corpse was posed,
I apologise if the word posed is inaccurate, perhaps it is more accurate to say the bodies were left in similar positions. Compare the descriptions of Martha Tabram with next (or first) ripper victim, Mary Nichols, below:
Martha Tabram
Barrett did not move the body before the doctor arrived, but let it remain in situ, with her hands lying by her side, clenched up and empty. The victim's clothes were thrown upwards, completely disarranged, and the bosom of the dress was torn away. Barrett further testified at inquest that the woman's clothes were thrown up so as to expose the lower part of the body, and the limbs were open, which suggested recent intimacy (East London Observer, Saturday, 11 August, 1888).

Mary Nichols
(East London Observer, Saturday, 8 September, 1888)
Directly he turned his lantern on the body he noticed blood was oozing from the woman's throat. She was lying on her back with her hands beside her body, the eyes wide open, the legs a little apart, and the hands open. Feeling her right arm he found it quite warm. Her bonnet was beside her on the ground.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sox View Post
or that she was subdued. In fact all of her injuries were inflicted before she died, which brings me to the most important point. Jack the Ripper killed so that he could mutilate, Martha Tabram was stabbed thirty nine times before she died. According to the reports, the focus was on the breast and groin region, not the neck and genitals.
As you say, Martha Tabram was alive while being stabbed. I submit if she was not subdued she would be screaming and someone would have heard her. There would certainly have been defence wounds if she was struggling -
none are mentioned. There was a trauma to the back of the head which may have been caused by a whack, or she may have been subdued a different way.

Her injuries were reported as focussing on breast, belly and groin. I was wrong to suggest it was the neck - but the groin is merely a more polite way of saying genital area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sox View Post
The two methods are, in fact, nothing alike at all. We see no progression between the method of killing Tabram & the method of killing Nichols. What we DO see is a totally different method. Tabram was stabbed to death, in all probability Nichols was strangled/suffocated. Tabram was not mutilated post mortem yet Nichols post mortem injuries were extensive.

I am more open than most on these forums to new ideas and exploring other avenues, but even I turn around when I see a blind alley.
I answered this in an earlier post (number 420 page 42) - you may not find my thoughts compelling, or may even find them fanciful, but whilst speculation, not implausible, in my view.
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  #437  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:33 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
I apologise if the word posed is inaccurate, perhaps it is more accurate to say the bodies were left in similar positions. Compare the descriptions of Martha Tabram with next (or first) ripper victim, Mary Nichols, below:
Martha Tabram
Barrett did not move the body before the doctor arrived, but let it remain in situ, with her hands lying by her side, clenched up and empty. The victim's clothes were thrown upwards, completely disarranged, and the bosom of the dress was torn away. Barrett further testified at inquest that the woman's clothes were thrown up so as to expose the lower part of the body, and the limbs were open, which suggested recent intimacy (East London Observer, Saturday, 11 August, 1888).

Mary Nichols
(East London Observer, Saturday, 8 September, 1888)
Directly he turned his lantern on the body he noticed blood was oozing from the woman's throat. She was lying on her back with her hands beside her body, the eyes wide open, the legs a little apart, and the hands open. Feeling her right arm he found it quite warm. Her bonnet was beside her on the ground.






As you say, Martha Tabram was alive while being stabbed. I submit if she was not subdued she would be screaming and someone would have heard her. There would certainly have been defence wounds if she was struggling -
none are mentioned. There was a trauma to the back of the head which may have been caused by a whack, or she may have been subdued a different way.

Her injuries were reported as focussing on breast, belly and groin. I was wrong to suggest it was the neck - but the groin is merely a more polite way of saying genital area.



I answered this in an earlier post (number 420 page 42) - you may not find my thoughts compelling, or may even find them fanciful, but whilst speculation, not implausible, in my view.
Hi Eten and sox/sam
plus there WERE signs of strangulation-one doctor pointed out the tongue being protruding with lacerations. a common sign of strangulation.

re being alive while stabbed. yup but as you mention-if she was conscious while being stabbed like that she would be screaming and fighting-no evidence of either.

I think we got a ripper who hadn't quite figured things out yet re MO and whatever the interaction between I think he probably grabbed her around the throat and or bashed her head against the ground, while strangling her in the process to knock her out. once she was unconscious he started stabbing her.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #438  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:01 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
once she was unconscious he started stabbing her.
The trouble is several of the stabs went through her lungs. If she was still alive at that time you'd expect her last breaths to have sprayed blood everywhere, and I don't think there's any mention of that in the records. Which doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course.
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  #439  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:21 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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The trouble is several of the stabs went through her lungs. If she was still alive at that time you'd expect her last breaths to have sprayed blood everywhere, and I don't think there's any mention of that in the records. Which doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course.
in my way of thinking she was alive but unconscious while being stabbed and could have died in the process of being stabbed. so some of the stabs could have been post mortem.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #440  
Old 10-13-2017, 01:01 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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One of the Boston Strangler's victims was stabbed to death, multiple times.
The reason he gave in an interview was, he went into a frenzy, "she just wouldn't shut up!"
He stabbed her about 22 times.

Tabram's 39 wounds speak to the same reason to me, her killer was frustrated and repeatedly stabbed her in a frenzy.
If he had a better weapon, he'd have used that, but I don't think he did.

The stab to the heart, through the breastbone, was done with a more stout weapon. I think it's likely what the killer's companion did that to end the debacle, so they can get out of there.

My bet is two soldiers.

Tabram also had a bruise to the back of her head, something the other vicitms didn't have.
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