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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #11  
Old 01-10-2017, 11:42 AM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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Originally Posted by Mary_Jane_Kelly View Post
Very interesting, I wonder if thats the same Lottie who was living in Mary's old room who was interviewed about Kitty Ronan's murder in millers court some years later (around 1909)?


An excerpt from the Interview done by Kathleen 'Kit' Blake Watkins.

"Millers Court was reached by a narrow passage under an arch reeking with fifth and crowded with women and children. Still residing there was Elizabeth Prater, who lived above Mary Kelly on the night of her murder, but was now living opposite. Elizabeth took Kit across the court to meet the current occupant of Mary Kelly's still blood stained room of number 13, a lady who went by the name of "Lottie". "I was her friend" said Lottie, speaking with difficulty because of a broken and battered nose given to her by a kick from her husband's heavy boot. "I was living further up the court then. She (Mary Kelly) says `I'm afraid to go out alone at night because of a dream I had that a man was murdering me. Maybe I'll be next. They say Jack's been busy in this quarter'. She said it with such a laugh ma'am that it just made me creep. And been sure enough ma'am she was the next to go. I heard her through the night singin' - she had a nice voice - "The violets grow on your mothers grave" - but that's all we 'urd". Lottie seemed to have no repugnance in sleeping in the room with its now blood blackened walls."
Same Lottie yes.
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  #12  
Old 01-10-2017, 11:48 AM
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There was no German connection for Julia Cooke as far as I know - her dad was from Kensington and mother from Wiltshire. Anthony Ventorini was Italian.
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  #13  
Old 01-10-2017, 12:34 PM
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When Elizabeth Broomer married William Prater on 8th October 1881, the profession of her father, James Broomer, was said to be Undertaker.

There was some connection to Hawes Horse Slaughterers at Fanshaw Street, Hoxton. Also, there seems to be an Uncle, a Mr Davis (?) who lived at 6 Pimlico Walk, Hoxton.

Might be interesting, but probably adds up to nothing. However, we do have a fairly good history of Prater's residencies. She moved to Miller's Court sometime in 1888 and stayed a while it seems.
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:47 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by MysterySinger View Post
When Elizabeth Broomer married William Prater on 8th October 1881, the profession of her father, James Broomer, was said to be Undertaker.

There was some connection to Hawes Horse Slaughterers at Fanshaw Street, Hoxton. Also, there seems to be an Uncle, a Mr Davis (?) who lived at 6 Pimlico Walk, Hoxton.

Might be interesting, but probably adds up to nothing. However, we do have a fairly good history of Prater's residencies. She moved to Miller's Court sometime in 1888 and stayed a while it seems.
That's right MS. He was a joiner by trade but was dead at the time of her marriage. Mr Davis is mentioned in my article too and who he was. It's all in my Ripperologist article, fully sourced, I linked to a copy of it in my first post.
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  #15  
Old 01-10-2017, 01:36 PM
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Thanks Debra. Gotta read your article again.
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  #16  
Old 01-10-2017, 01:57 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Here's brief bio on Elizabeth Prater:
Great stuff! I always thought the bio of Prater on the Witnesses page sounded a bit iffy. Probably should be updated
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  #17  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:26 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Thanks Debra. Gotta read your article again.
Do you have your research on Julia V written down anywhere? I noticed a girl in the workhouse records recently who I thought was Julia's daughter and she was in trouble with the police but I didn't get chance to research it further. Do you have any information about that too? Cheers.
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  #18  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:34 PM
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I often wondered whether Caroline Maxwell mixed up MJK with someone else but I'm not sure that her statement of MJKs movements that morning tally with anything we know of Elizabeth Prater's movements. However, it would be really good, I think, to tie Maxwell down prior to what we're told in 1888.

Great article by the way in Ripperologist Debs. I don't think I've read it previously but must have picked up some of the points from your posts alongside my own research. I'm sure I found a work house record or settlement paper or something similar for an Elizabeth Prater that said her husband had been in prison. But I've always found the EP records to be confusing so you've done a good job in fleshing out and pinning down the detail as you have.
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  #19  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:36 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Great stuff! I always thought the bio of Prater on the Witnesses page sounded a bit iffy. Probably should be updated
Thanks Josh. Chris got the right Prater family but the wrong generation. It does make more sense that Elizabeth was a young woman doesn't it? When we consider reports that Prater was waiting for her 'young man' at the entrance to the court and similar. It also adds to the question of how much McCarthy knew or was involved in the goings on at Miller's Court. Although Prater could have been waiting for her 'young man' in the sense it was a partner, it could be that she was waiting at the entrance for a client. Maybe she had pre-arranged a meeting or had it been set up by someone else? I assumed that MJK, Cox and Prater went out on to the streets to solicit and would do the deed on the streets or bring back clients who were willing to pay for that comfort but perhaps they stood at the entrance?
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Old 01-10-2017, 02:44 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by MysterySinger View Post
I often wondered whether Caroline Maxwell mixed up MJK with someone else but I'm not sure that her statement of MJKs movements that morning tally with anything we know of Elizabeth Prater's movements. However, it would be really good, I think, to tie Maxwell down prior to what we're told in 1888.

Great article by the way in Ripperologist Debs. I don't think I've read it previously but must have picked up some of the points from your posts alongside my own research. I'm sure I found a work house record or settlement paper or something similar for an Elizabeth Prater that said her husband had been in prison. But I've always found the EP records to be confusing so you've done a good job in fleshing out and pinning down the detail as you have.
Thanks MS.
I also wondered if Maxwell mixed up the two women but as Prater appeared at the inquest and so did Maxwell she probably would have realised her mistake. There is a lot of similarity between the two women though in terms of some of the details of their histories that I found interesting as well as a similarity in looks that could have been just a coincidence caused by the illustrator. I also think it shows that other young women were in exactly the same position as MJK in the same area.

I haven't come across the reference to prison but one of the descendants of William Prater senior posted some interesting information about the family and some speculation about what happened to William junior. I can't remember if she mentioned prison though, I'll have to check that out, Thanks.
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