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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #61  
Old 03-18-2008, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Hutchinson View Post
What is particularly fun is that they were both taken for George R Sims' 1901 epic LIVING LONDON, by which time all the women had been dead for 13 years.

PHILIP
Hi Philip

If you look at the first sentence in my post (#1) then you'll see I did say "to be taken with a pinch of salt". But even if those photos did appear in George R Sims' 1901 epic LIVING LONDON, who's to say they weren't old stock, and were actually taken in 1888?
"... I did say "to be taken with a pinch of salt"."

Quite frankly, Observer, it needs to be taken as an outright impossibility !!!

"... who's to say they weren't old stock, and were actually taken in 1888?"


I am !!!

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56 Flower & Dean Street (aka "The White House"), Christ Church Spitalfields

Regardless of any publications, in which this photograph may have appeared, it can be said with absolute certainty that it was taken after the construction of Nathaniel Dwellings, which was completed in late 1892.

The iron fence and balcony seen in the left background, were part of Nathaniel Dwellings, which replaced the north side of Flower & Dean Street (#'s 30-55), as stated above, in 1892. Catherine Eddowes's lodgings, at 55 Flower & Dean Street, stood precisely where the photograph's depiction of the eastern end of Nathaniel Dwellings can be seen.

So, when this photograph was taken: Not only was Catherine Eddowes long-gone; so too were her lodgings. And John Kelly, of course, had since moved elsewhere.

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1873 OS
Green: 55 Flower & Dean Street, Christ Church Spitalfields
Red: 56 Flower & Dean Street (aka "The White House"), Christ Church Spitalfields


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Map used in 1876, by The Whitechapel District of The Metropolitan Board of Works, for the development of "The Flower & Dean Street Improvement Plan"
Green: 55 Flower & Dean Street, Christ Church Spitalfields
Red: 56 Flower & Dean Street (aka "The White House"), Christ Church Spitalfields


Quote:
Originally Posted by George Hutchinson View Post
Rob will be able to confirm this, but I have a feeling that they were renumbered at some point as well? I think The White House was at 56 F&D and on the map here, 56 is one of the smallest buildings, which would surprise me.

"... I have a feeling that they were renumbered at some point ..."


Actually, Philip, they were not !!!

The Flower & Dean Street numbering remained intact to the end.

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1894 OS
Blue:
Nathaniel Dwellings, Flower & Dean Street, Christ Church Spitalfields
Red: 56 Flower & Dean Street (aka "The White House"), Christ Church Spitalfields

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Flower & Dean Street, Christ Church Spitalfields
"The People of the Abyss"
, by Jack London, 1902


The balconies and iron fencing of Nathaniel Dwellings are readily apparent, and the wall-lamps of "The White House" (#56) can be seen in the distance.

The four-or-five common lodging houses, which stood at the eastern end of Flower & Dean Street, survived its redevelopment and continued catering to Gentile prostitutes, thieves and yobs long after the remaining portion of the thoroughfare had become a row of model dwellings, catering almost exclusively to Eastern European Jewish immigrants. According to Jerry White, the Jewish inhabitants of these model dwellings did not venture into the very eastern end of the street at any time, for any reason; unless in large number.

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Former Site of 56 Flower & Dean Street (aka "The White House"), Christ Church Spitalfields
circa, early 1960's
more-or-less, the same view as that of the photograph in question

"The White House"
was severely damaged by German bombing in 1917, and was either re-modeled or replaced.


Colin
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  #62  
Old 03-18-2008, 09:38 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Great piece of sleuth-work, Colin
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"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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  #63  
Old 03-19-2008, 04:23 AM
George Hutchinson George Hutchinson is offline
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Ah, I was commenting without having any reference material with me and do you know why? Because I couldn't be bothered! Good work, Seppy.

Observer - point taken about the jokey nature of the thread, and I did see you say that in the first place, but people were starting to make semi-serious comments about the liklihood of those famous images containing a Ripper victim so I felt I had to step in before it got out of hand.

Celesta - my postcard comment was an answer to someone asking when postcards were first in use. Nothing to do with an enquiry about postcards of the relevant locations.

PHILIP
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  #64  
Old 03-19-2008, 10:53 AM
Mike Covell Mike Covell is offline
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Great work Colin,

fantastic pics and maps as always.

Our Friend in France would have us believe it is the Ghost of Mary Kelly sat there!
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  #65  
Old 03-19-2008, 05:41 PM
Celesta Celesta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Hutchinson View Post
Ah, I was commenting without having any reference material with me and do you know why? Because I couldn't be bothered! Good work, Seppy.

Observer - point taken about the jokey nature of the thread, and I did see you say that in the first place, but people were starting to make semi-serious comments about the liklihood of those famous images containing a Ripper victim so I felt I had to step in before it got out of hand.

Celesta - my postcard comment was an answer to someone asking when postcards were first in use. Nothing to do with an enquiry about postcards of the relevant locations.

PHILIP

Thanks, Philip.
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  #66  
Old 03-20-2008, 06:03 PM
Observer Observer is offline
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Wink You've been Keaned

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Hutchinson View Post
Ah, I was commenting without having any reference material with me and do you know why? Because I couldn't be bothered! Good work, Seppy.

Observer - point taken about the jokey nature of the thread, and I did see you say that in the first place, but people were starting to make semi-serious comments about the liklihood of those famous images containing a Ripper victim so I felt I had to step in before it got out of hand.

Celesta - my postcard comment was an answer to someone asking when postcards were first in use. Nothing to do with an enquiry about postcards of the relevant locations.

PHILIP
No problems Philip. Apart from Septic Blue, I doubt whether anyone took my assertion too seriously anyway, you know looking at the date of his post I can't even blame his reprimand on the Robbie Keane equaliser last night, 88th minute no less

Come on you Spurs

Observer
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  #67  
Old 03-20-2008, 06:31 PM
Observer Observer is offline
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Wink The four scorer's

Hi Colin

I'm always Keane to admit when I'm wrong, but in effect what you are saying is if the photo was taken in 1888 then those railings in the photo would not be there. Would the railings have a Woodgate? Those Street women in the photo Huddle the kerb Stones do they not? And the well dressed man in the
Dorset Street photo, I wonder if it could be George Chapman? You know the one, the Barbertoff.

Observer

Last edited by Observer : 03-20-2008 at 06:34 PM. Reason: to add a title
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  #68  
Old 05-16-2009, 11:34 PM
WARSPITE WARSPITE is offline
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Nice thread this. Thanks for sorting out the location of the no56 for me, went down there the other day inside the Lolesworth estate, and one can get a pretty good idea of the streets old line by looking west to the Commercial St end.
I think its reasonable to say theres a decent chance the women in the photo may have known some of the victims,at least by sight, anyway.
Regards more phots turning up, I agree with you Celesta. Theres bound to be more,somwhere, hasnt there?
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