Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - by Pinkerton 1 minute ago.
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - by DirectorDave 13 minutes ago.
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - by Pinkerton 39 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: H H holmes - by DirectorDave 41 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 48 minutes ago.
General Discussion: Albert Backert - did he emigrate? - by Nelson 1 hour and 5 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - (10 posts)
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - (8 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: H H holmes - (5 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (4 posts)
General Discussion: Albert Backert - did he emigrate? - (3 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Was Ernest Dowson Jack the Ripper? - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1041  
Old 10-23-2017, 10:55 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer View Post
Finally, to be honest I'm not up on the Torso Murders, I don't think they have anything to do with the Ripper murders. However, on the face of it don't you think it a wee bit suspicious that Mellor was the discoverer of Jackson't thigh? Time to read the Jackson inquest.
I used to think it was very odd Mellor found the thigh in the garden. Even though I still find it suspicious, the journalists were doing everything they could to capitalize on these stories of Ripper and torso. During the Jackson investigation, people, not only police, were scouring the shores near Battersea to find her other body parts. Mellor was supposedly walking along the embankment in that area and may have been specifically looking for parcels when he came across the thigh.

That's my take anyway at this point. Remember too, two journalists threw themselves into the investigation of the police vault and brought their own dog in to find the buried leg of the Whitehall torso. Wonder why they were so adamant about it, because the police say they searched the area after finding the torso and came up empty. Maybe they knew something?

Last edited by jerryd : 10-23-2017 at 11:00 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1042  
Old 10-23-2017, 11:11 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer View Post
Hi Jerry just been reading Mellor's account of the proceedings, and can't for the life of me understand how Mellor deduced that Arnold and the compositer known as Cleary could have been the same man. One was six feet tall, the other five four.
I think the name "John Cleary" is why he was alerted. Then he proceeded to give his description of the man he knew (The Globe man) which turned out to obviously be the wrong guy.

There was, however, another John Cleary that played into this, but his name wasn't John Cleary in fact. His alias was John Leary and he did recently live at 21 Whitehorse Yard. The same address John Arnold gave to the Herald. After investigation by Swanson and another Detective named Partridge, John Leary was found to be a man named Dennis Lynch. John Arnold also lived at Whitehorse Yard at one time (different house number) and in my opinion knew Dennis Lynch.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1043  
Old 10-23-2017, 11:25 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,280
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
Peter Sutcliffe isnít a good example, Harry. Sutcliffe never changed from relatively low-risk murders that were spread out over more than a decade to high-risk in murders in only a couple of months, only to return then to the relatively low-risk murder type.

The man responsible for the torsos was willing and able to take time to get their victims to some private place, kill them & cut them up, think of places where he would leave them, which meant that he had to know some of these places very well and chose the right time (when there was no copper or anybody else around) to do dump body parts. That is very far removed from the Ripper, who more or less did what he did when he wanted to and wasn't willing to take his time to minimize risk to the extent the Torso murderer was.

If you find me an example of a serial killer who changed from low-risk to high-risk and back again like the Torso man/Ripper, then I might change my mind.

All the best,
Frank
Hi Frank

I'm not sure if the low risk or high risk thing is even viable. Both took incredibly high risks.

but regardless, serial killers MO changes, sometimes drastically, its well known.

need to really focus on the sig, which in both cases is mainly post mortem mutilation and removal of body parts.

also, no evidence of torture or sadism in either series.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1044  
Old 10-23-2017, 11:30 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
no evidence of torture or sadism in either series.
Hi Abby,

I know Christer mentioned no torture at some point in the thread as well. Even though I don't know if we can consider it torture, the Pinchin torso showed signs of having been recently beaten and or kicked. See inquest reports on the bruises on her arms and back.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1045  
Old 10-23-2017, 11:34 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 924
Default

Here's another thought to ponder. Could Liz Stride have been an intended victim to abduct and take away to murder and dismember her? It almost seems as though someone was trying to drag her out of there against her will. The area she was murdered would fit with the Pinchin torso. They were very close to each other.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1046  
Old 10-23-2017, 11:35 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,280
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Hi Abby,

I know Christer mentioned no torture at some point in the thread as well. Even though I don't know if we can consider it torture, the Pinchin torso showed signs of having been recently beaten and or kicked. See inquest reports on the bruises on her arms and back.
Hi Jerry
well even the ripper victims had bruses and abrasions-which more than likely happened at the initial attack when trying to render the victim dead.
I'm sure some of the victims of either series may have put up some kind of fight also.

I'm talking about obvious signs of prolonged torture, burns, extensive brusing or non fatal cuts etc.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1047  
Old 10-23-2017, 11:50 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Jerry
well even the ripper victims had bruses and abrasions-which more than likely happened at the initial attack when trying to render the victim dead.
I'm sure some of the victims of either series may have put up some kind of fight also.

I'm talking about obvious signs of prolonged torture, burns, extensive brusing or non fatal cuts etc.
Gotcha.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1048  
Old 10-23-2017, 11:56 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,280
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Gotcha.
Hey Jer
you gonna right up an article on all this stuff and how it ties together?
Wildbore, cleary, torso dump sites, strange news stories etc?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1049  
Old 10-23-2017, 12:02 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hey Jer
you gonna right up an article on all this stuff and how it ties together?
Wildbore, cleary, torso dump sites, strange news stories etc?
I basically have, just scattered across 4,000 threads. lol

Seriously though, if I could ever settle in on how certain people may or may not fit into this, I might do that. There are a lot of people to consider and they all seem to be connected in one way or another. I'm kind of waiting for Tom Wescott's Legrand book to come out. Legrand fits into my scenario a little bit as well. The other problem is the Cleveland Street Scandal. I have my ideas there and I don't know if it all fits together or if they are just strange coincidences. Which is probably the case.

Last edited by jerryd : 10-23-2017 at 12:09 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1050  
Old 10-23-2017, 12:17 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,645
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Jerry
well even the ripper victims had bruses and abrasions-which more than likely happened at the initial attack when trying to render the victim dead.
I'm sure some of the victims of either series may have put up some kind of fight also.

I'm talking about obvious signs of prolonged torture, burns, extensive brusing or non fatal cuts etc.
Abby didn't the body have rope marks from being tied up?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.