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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Tumblety, Francis

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  #11  
Old 09-25-2017, 04:23 PM
DirectorDave DirectorDave is offline
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Hi Wolf, have you listened to the podcast?

3 separate accounts of him having a feminine attributes or differing from the male norm from the waist down by people who had seen him naked, also confirming he was well built from the waist up.

Certainly his feminine voice was worthy of note by a couple of people in this evidence.

If you are disputing the evidence presented in the podcast can you enlighten me as to why we should doubt it?
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  #12  
Old 09-25-2017, 05:17 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Well playing devil's advocate don't you think that that would have been something that he would have wanted to conceal rather than advertise? If so, what about all those encounters with young men that led to his arrest?

c.d.
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  #13  
Old 09-25-2017, 05:26 PM
DirectorDave DirectorDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
Well playing devil's advocate don't you think that that would have been something that he would have wanted to conceal rather than advertise? If so, what about all those encounters with young men that led to his arrest?

c.d.
Hi cd.

One of the observations was made when his trousers fell down when unconscious and the other on the mortuary slab, in those two instances concealment was not within his power. In the podcast it certainly obvious that Tumblety wanted it concealed.

The other was a sexual encounter with a young man, which FT was assuming a passive role which may hint at what "all those encounters with young men" involved.
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Last edited by DirectorDave : 09-25-2017 at 05:28 PM.
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  #14  
Old 09-26-2017, 05:11 AM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirectorDave View Post
Hi Wolf, have you listened to the podcast?

3 separate accounts of him having a feminine attributes or differing from the male norm from the waist down by people who had seen him naked, also confirming he was well built from the waist up.

Certainly his feminine voice was worthy of note by a couple of people in this evidence.

If you are disputing the evidence presented in the podcast can you enlighten me as to why we should doubt it?
Thank you Dave....and thank you for listening to the podcast...there is more as well...much more, that Podcast we did when there was only limited info we were able to provide (for complicated reasons) but as I have said, Mike's book will be full of interesting revelations...

Also remember, I went into this project as the skeptic, the "anti Tumblety guy" but facts are facts....And I will say it again... I AM NOT SAYING HE WAS THE RIPPER...but...the evidence shows that he clearly COULD BE... and should be taken seriously.

Michael Hawley does not come from a Ripperology background.. he is a scientist and is about finding evidence...not opinion...but facts... that he checks and double checks and puts up for peer review..there are those who have a problem with him (and myself I have heard) but oh well... that come with the territory I guess....all I ask is that you listen, read and you can make up your own mind.. and please check and double check the data... this has nothing to do with ego for Mike (again, or myself), if we can be proved wrong.. I mean PROVED... great... that's what scientific study is all about... finding the truth.

The Ripperology community should be thankful to have Mr. Hawley as a part of it now...he brings a fresh approach, no ego and he is a workaholic (even if he has proven me wrong on 2 occasions... I wont hold that against him)

Steadmund Brand (Brian)-
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  #15  
Old 09-26-2017, 06:18 AM
DirectorDave DirectorDave is offline
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Hi again Brian,

When someone here mentions "secret squirrel" evidence that they can't talk about due to "complicated" reasons my eyes tend to roll and it's "oh aye here we go again Diaryesque musings", but as these are Saint Louis County legal documents, I totally understand why things would be complicated and I am content to wait for further details.

The thing is, this information is not from some Victorian newspaper hack trying to turn a coin or indeed Tumblety himself in one of his biographies furthering his Walter Mitty style life...this is evidence presented in court, before a judge (I assume?) under oath? By people with no reason to lie.

This could be the most unbiased account of Tumblety we have to date. I'm not here looking to find Jack in truth I'm a wannabee time traveller that finds this case and all that surrounds it a kind of flux-capacitor to take me right back there to the LVP and the autumn of terror.

There is an instance of an intersex condition in my family and the "shaped like a woman from the waist down" rings quite a few bells...the individual in question has grown up to be a fairly average blokey bloke.

The issue in question within my family was Klinefelter syndrome (XXY Chromosomes). From what was reported I am left with the conclusion Tumblety had a functioning vagina that was used to gain sexual pleasure when intimate...other conclusions are available.

I'm not sure the evidence presented really advances FT's candidacy as the ripper...if you believe he was a impotent male using the knife as a phallic symbol it may do, if you think Jack was a rapist/killer then I think this evidence almost rules Tumblety out.

Really interesting stuff and makes Tumblety an even more fascinating character, irrespective of his candidacy as the Whitechapel murderer...I look forward to hearing and reading more.
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Last edited by DirectorDave : 09-26-2017 at 06:33 AM.
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  #16  
Old 09-26-2017, 06:50 AM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirectorDave View Post
Hi again Brian,

When someone here mentions "secret squirrel" evidence that they can't talk about due to "complicated" reasons my eyes tend to roll and it's "oh aye here we go again Diaryesque musings", but as these are Saint Louis County legal documents, I totally understand why things would be complicated and I am content to wait for further details.




I'm not sure the evidence presented really advances FT's candidacy as the ripper...if you believe he was a impotent male using the knife as a phallic symbol it may do, if you think Jack was a rapist/killer then I think this evidence almost rules Tumblety out.

Really interesting stuff and makes Tumblety an even more fascinating character, irrespective of his candidacy as the Whitechapel murderer...I look forward to hearing and reading more.
Thank you for understanding.... it is not an excuse to hold anything back... but was an agreement made between parties at the time...so we could only discuss some of the info at the time of that podcast.. I wish it were not that way.. but we are gentlemen and when we agree to something that means something to us.

The intersexed thing I believe does NOTHING for his candidacy as the Ripper...however, some of his statements and actions do, and the testimony of his behavior etc....and the fact that he was considered a legit suspect by multiple Scotland yard folks....

as Mike has said many time... if these were indeed sex crimes (as many people believe they were) then Tumblety IS NOT THE RIPPER...but if they are anger retaliatory or..well something even more sinister then he is still a viable suspect... that is up for debate I agree


Thank you again... he was a fascinating character..my research into him had nothing at all to do with the Ripper connection...but many other areas of his life.. which I am compiling now... hopefully more to come on that as well

Steadmund (Brian) Brand
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  #17  
Old 09-26-2017, 07:55 AM
jmenges jmenges is offline
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To further clarify, certain information contained in the St. Louis legal documents were withheld from the first portion of the interview after I consulted with the powers that be at Casebook in order to avoid any legal issues. We were ultimately given permission to release that info after waiting for two weeks. Which is why the show is the joining of two separate interviews. Of course there is information Mike has discovered subsequent to the airing of the podcast and items he wanted to save for his book, but in general the 'complicated' reasoning behind keeping information secret was all taking place behind the scenes and was resolved prior to me releasing the episode.

JM
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  #18  
Old 09-26-2017, 08:20 AM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
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Thanks Jonathan.. How fun that was eh??
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  #19  
Old 09-26-2017, 08:33 AM
jmenges jmenges is offline
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A lot of Rippercast "firsts" took place during the planning, recording, editing and releasing of that show.

JM
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  #20  
Old 09-26-2017, 10:34 AM
Wolf Vanderlinden Wolf Vanderlinden is offline
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Hi Dave.

Quote:
If you are disputing the evidence presented in the podcast can you enlighten me as to why we should doubt it?
Quote:
The thing is, this information is not from some Victorian newspaper hack trying to turn a coin...this is evidence presented in court, before a judge (I assume?) under oath? By people with no reason to lie.

This could be the most unbiased account of Tumblety we have to date.
I think the reason why you, and everyone else, should look upon this information with a healthy dose of scepticism is that there seems to be little understanding of what these documents actually are. What their real purpose was and what they were intended to prove in a court of law.

I see this illustrated in your posts above. “This information is not from some Victorian newspaper hack trying to turn a coin.” And yet it is all about Tumblety family members trying to get their hands on his money. “Unbiased account?” Far from it. It was as biased as they could make it.

Cut out of the will, having lost at every legal turn and having exhausted all legal recourse, they had only one option left to them: attempt to prove that Tumblety was not mentally competent to make a legal and binding will. In order to get their hands on a share of his money members of his own family had to prove in a court of law that Tumblety was insane. It was either that or get nothing.

In order to “prove” that Tumblety was not mentally competent it was revealed in testimony that he was an homosexual – in 1905, the time of the trial, homosexuality was seen as a form of insanity.
Tumblety was “revealed” in testimony to be a “morphadite” – in 1905 hermaphroditism, or morphaditism, were linked to insanity.
Tumblety supposedly suffered from tertiary effects of syphilis – syphilis ate away at the brain over time causing insanity.
Tumblety was said to possibly be Jack the Ripper – Jack the Ripper was considered the epitome of the psychopathic sexual killer, a killer discussed in Krafft-Ebing’s ground breaking work Psychopathia Sexualis, for those who needed to connect the Ripper with medical proof of insanity.

There seems to be a certain naïve belief that because witnesses gave evidence under oath, and in front of a judge, that they would only tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That no one, when a cut of a large fortune was at stake, would ever lie. And yet the testimony of Richard Norris appears to be full of lies. In fact, it appears that Norris was stating that he discussed the Whitechapel Murders with Tumblety in 1881, 7 years before they actually happened, which is a neat trick.

Also, although I haven’t read the 900 pages of legal documents I do know that the trial did include testimony from some of the staff of the hospital in St. Louis, where Tumblety spent his last days, that refuted some of the claims made against Tumblety (presumably the physical descriptions). I haven’t heard anyone discuss, let alone mention this, but if true someone was lying before a judge and while under oath…but that would never happen, would it?

Wolf.
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