The Lechmere/Cross "name issue"

[John Wheat]

Might PC Mizen have been at all suspicious of Cross and Paul? If so, could he have continued knocking up in part to make sure the pair weren't trying to distract him for some nefarious purpose?

Might PC Mizen have actually been an experienced police man fully capable of sussing out two witnesses who were probably in shock at the body they'd found? This Lechmere bullshit is becoming very tedious now.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Cross felt one of the deceased's hands and finding it cold, said "I think she is dead",[note think].
Paul felt her face and hands and said "I think she's breathing but it's very little if she is". He thought she may be dead,[note he thought, not said]. in other words Cross thinks that Paul thinks she is still alive.
Now if i was Jack i would say " Yeah your probably right, just some drunk
sleeping it off". Go on my merry way with nothing to connect me [no policemen, no bloodied knife on my person, no bloodied hands etc] ,apart from a possible later ID by Paul. But assuming they found Lechmere, and they had suspicions against him. A man leaving home shortly before the murder and arriving at work shortly after, what evidence is that? He could easily change the timing so he left five minutes later or arrived five minutes earlier than he did, who would remember ?

[Joshua Rogan]

Might PC Mizen have actually been an experienced police man fully capable of sussing out two witnesses who were probably in shock at the body they'd found? This Lechmere bullshit is becoming very tedious now.

Nothing to do with Lechmere per se. I was just wondering what the PC would have made of two seeming calm men walking out of the night and telling him he was wanted in another street. Could he have suspected they were sending him on a wild goose chase in order to, say, stage a burglary?

[John Wheat]

Cross felt one of the deceased's hands and finding it cold, said "I think she is dead",[note think].
Paul felt her face and hands and said "I think she's breathing but it's very little if she is". He thought she may be dead,[note he thought, not said]. in other words Cross thinks that Paul thinks she is still alive.
Now if i was Jack i would say " Yeah your probably right, just some drunk
sleeping it off". Go on my merry way with nothing to connect me [no policemen, no bloodied knife on my person, no bloodied hands etc] ,apart from a possible later ID by Paul. But assuming they found Lechmere, and they had suspicions against him. A man leaving home shortly before the murder and arriving at work shortly after, what evidence is that? He could easily change the timing so he left five minutes later or arrived five minutes earlier than he did, who would remember ?

Absolutely Darryl this Lechmere bullshit is exactly that.

[John Wheat]

Nothing to do with Lechmere per se. I was just wondering what the PC would have made of two seeming calm men walking out of the night and telling him he was wanted in another street. Could he have suspected they were sending him on a wild goose chase in order to, say, stage a burglary?

Who says they were calm as I said they were probably in shock.

[Patrick S]

Cross felt one of the deceased's hands and finding it cold, said "I think she is dead",[note think].
Paul felt her face and hands and said "I think she's breathing but it's very little if she is". He thought she may be dead,[note he thought, not said]. in other words Cross thinks that Paul thinks she is still alive.
Now if i was Jack i would say " Yeah your probably right, just some drunk
sleeping it off". Go on my merry way with nothing to connect me [no policemen, no bloodied knife on my person, no bloodied hands etc] ,apart from a possible later ID by Paul. But assuming they found Lechmere, and they had suspicions against him. A man leaving home shortly before the murder and arriving at work shortly after, what evidence is that? He could easily change the timing so he left five minutes later or arrived five minutes earlier than he did, who would remember ?

You're on the same track I've been on for years now. I've told Christer as much. Why not agree with Paul? Why not say, "AH! I see she is breathing and I can smell the booze on her!" I'm sure Nichols reeked of alcohol in that Emily Holland - who met Nichols a little more than an hour before her body was found - described her as being very drunk.

Another point I've made with respect to bloodied hands, etc. Christer has made an issue of Cross refusing Paul's request to move Nichols' body. He's claimed that doing so would have revealed her horrible injuries. So we know that Cross is certain of the fact, it would seem, that the man approaching in the dark (Paul), didn't have a match ala Louis Diemschutz in Dutfield's Yard with which to light the scene. But, we also know that he's certain that in course of his killing and mutilating Nichols, then hiding the knife in his coat he had NO blood on him that might need explaining away. Even thought it was pitch black and he may have been covered in blood he refused an opportunity to explain away any blood that may have been on his hands, coat, etc. And Paul would have been there to witness him doing so.

What a criminal mastermind.

[Abby Normal]

So, let's discuss this a bit, Abby, this idea that Lechmere perpetrated this elaborate hoax, this charade to fool the good, noble, honorable, Christian, PC Jonas Mizen.

Lechmere WANTED Mizen to essentially ignore being told of "a woman lying" in Bucks Row. Let's first establish why he would want that. First, to get away with murdering Nichols. Second, so that he could remain a free man, to continue killing prostitutes, women, people, etc. Third, to remain alive to care for his family (Killer or not it's clear that Lechmere did care about the lives of his family in that we now - as FACT - that he DID work at Pickford's for 20+ years. He DID managed to well enough financially to move his family to a better address every few years. He DID manage to save enough to open a small shop upon retirement. He DID manage to leave his wife a sizable sum upon his death. He DID managed to raise 10 children to adulthood, all of whom refrained from lives of crime and became soldiers, clerks, shopkeepers, etc.).

So. How does Lechmere go about getting what he wants here (i.e. Mizen to not act upon the information of a woman "lying in Bucks Row"?

1. After killing and mutilating Nichols, upon hearing footsteps some 40 yards off, in the dark, he hides the knife in his coat, stands next to his victim, and forces the man (Paul - who tried to avoid him), to come see the woman.
2. He agrees to remain in the man's company until they find a policeman to tell what they'd found.
3. He remains in the man's company until the do, indeed, find a PC in Baker's Row (Mizen).
4. He tells the PC what he and the other man had seen in Buck's Row. He tells Mizen, "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead." (Cross inquest testimony). Paul agrees on this, by the way. "I told him what I had seen, and I asked him to come, but he did not say whether he should come or not. He continued calling the people up, which I thought was a great shame, after I had told him the woman was dead.

So, unless I'm misinterpreting this, Lechmere's plan to get away was to tell EVERYONE he met about the woman he'd just killed, to be sure to mention that HE thought she was dead....and then (lest we forget) to show up at the inquest bright and early Monday morning to tell the coroner and jury all about it, too.

And this seems a reasonable plan to you?

no. not at all.

[Abby Normal]

I think he checked on Polly because he thought she might be a piece of discarded tarpaulin he might be able to use

I thought the tarp thing was apocraphyl.? is it in his inquest testimony?

[Joshua Rogan]

I thought the tarp thing was apocraphyl.? is it in his inquest testimony?

I've just been going through the various reports, and most do mention it. However, some say simply "tarpaulin", some "tarpaulin sheet" and still others say "a man's tarpaulin" (which is possibly where I got the idea it was a coat).

[David Orsam]

Duties of a Constable (applicable to the Metropolitan Police at the time):

The Protection of Life and Property

The Maintenance of Order

The Prevention and Detection of Crime

The Prosecution of Offenders Against The Peace.

Mizen had no way of knowing why the woman was lying where she was, but had been told that she was either dead or drunk. She could, of course, have been ill or dying. There was no way of knowing without visiting the scene - which Mizen decided was not a priority. She was either dead, dying, drunk or ill. In fact, of course, she was dead - and a murder victim. He didn't know that - but only because he thought that the lucrative 'knocking-up' sideline was a higher priority than going to check the matter out.

I'm surprised that there still seem to be misconceptions and misunderstandings about PC Mizen's duties even though I've already corrected this before. Please note the following:

1. Knocking up was an important part of a Metropolitan Police Constable's official duties - a constable would be liable for punishment for neglecting this duty.

2. After 1853, Met police constables were not entitled to take payment of any kind for knocking up.

3. Police constables were not supposed to leave their beats except in an emergency. Leaving a beat improperly was ground for a misconduct charge.

People also need to focus on PC Mizen's evidence. Whatever Cross or Paul thought they had told the constable, Mizen's understanding was that he was wanted by another officer in Bucks Row because a woman was lying there. According to his own account, he was not told that the woman was either dead or drunk (and certainly not murdered) but, even if he was, Bucks Row was not part of his beat, and was, in fact, in another division, so it was arguably for the beat constable to deal with.

People also need to understand that Mizen did not continue knocking up. He simply finished the knocking up task he was engaged on in respect of one person. His evidence is very clear on this.

[Abby Normal]

I'm surprised that there still seem to be misconceptions and misunderstandings about PC Mizen's duties even though I've already corrected this before. Please note the following:

1. Knocking up was an important part of a Metropolitan Police Constable's official duties - a constable would be liable for punishment for neglecting this duty.

2. After 1853, Met police constables were not entitled to take payment of any kind for knocking up.

3. Police constables were not supposed to leave their beats except in an emergency. Leaving a beat improperly was ground for a misconduct charge.

People also need to focus on PC Mizen's evidence. Whatever Cross or Paul thought they had told the constable, Mizen's understanding was that he was wanted by another officer in Bucks Row because a woman was lying there. According to his own account, he was not told that the woman was either dead or drunk (and certainly not murdered) but, even if he was, Bucks Row was not part of his beat, and was, in fact, in another division, so it was arguably for the beat constable to deal with.

People also need to understand that Mizen did not continue knocking up. He simply finished the knocking up task he was engaged on in respect of one person. His evidence is very clear on this.

Hi David
Thanks. IMHO Mizen did nothing wrong, except perhaps he should have taken theyre names. Ive seen so many respected posters on here over the years disparage Mizen for one reason or the other-usually because of the continuing to knock up nonsense-and I really don't get it.

[Pcdunn]

I've just been going through the various reports, and most do mention it. However, some say simply "tarpaulin", some "tarpaulin sheet" and still others say "a man's tarpaulin" (which is possibly where I got the idea it was a coat).

It is a type of coat, Joshua. I did some web searching awhile back for another thread, and found song lyrics referring to "soldiers in their tarpaulin jackets", so that might support that.

http://mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5691

The song below seems to be a version of the American Western song, "Streets of Laredo".

TARPAULIN JACKET
(words attributed to G. J. Whyte-Melville (1821-1878);air by Charles Coote)

A tall stalwart lancer lay dying,
And as on his deathbed he lay,
To his friends who around him were sighing,
These last dying words he did say:

cho: Wrap me up in my tarpaulin jacket
And say a poor buffer lies low;
And six stalwart lancers shall carry me
With steps solemn, mournful and slow.

Had I the wings of a little dove,
Far far away would I fly; I'd fly
Straight for the arms of my true love
And there I would lay me and die.

cho:

[harry]

I believe it was also departmental policy for officers to assist each other.In this case it should have occurred to Mizen,that if Paul and Cross were reporting to him(Mizen),it must be that Neil hadn't been informed,and was possibly unaware of the situation.In that case Mizen would have reasonable cause to investigate outside his own beat.

[David Orsam]

Ive seen so many respected posters on here over the years disparage Mizen for one reason or the other-usually because of the continuing to knock up nonsense-and I really don't get it.

Yes Abby, some people seem to focus rather more on the questions Mizen was asked at the inquest, and the implication behind them, rather than on his answers.

[David Orsam]

I believe it was also departmental policy for officers to assist each other.In this case it should have occurred to Mizen,that if Paul and Cross were reporting to him(Mizen),it must be that Neil hadn't been informed,and was possibly unaware of the situation.In that case Mizen would have reasonable cause to investigate outside his own beat.

But Mizen's testimony was that Cross told him that he was wanted by a policeman in Bucks Row, so surely the very opposite of what you suggest would have been in his mind, namely that Neil WAS aware and was asking for his assistance.