Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[mickreed]

You know I first discovered Casebook when doing family research. I had been interested in Jack since I was a nipper due to stories from family that originated in Dorset. But when I first started reading here I thought it must have been a site that only police could join, it took me a while to work it out. I know I'm thick as two short planks.

Well, as you know GUT, when an Englishman goes to Oz, it raises the IQ of both countries.

[Monty]

Already preordered Neil, but why worry about copious (and I'm sure, careful) research when you can just make it up?

You really must be a mug to have wasted all that time.

Thanks Mick

Yep, 7 years I won't be getting back.

Monty

[Gene Lewis]

Of course, one suggestion is that the "shawl" might have belonged to the victim of a different crime, and that a mistaken family tradition might have associated it with Eddowes.

And so, Mr Edwards has found Kate Eddowes-like DNA, testing one of her descendant in the direct female line, on a shawl that was owned by – let's say – Polly Nichols ? Humm-humm…

[wolfie1]

Have consulted a few Geneo books to assist with deciphering old scrip .
Initially I could make out the letters dec, Is it possibly 'seen decd', shorthand for deceased?

[Amanda]

The Carters and Cadys were in Wyke Regis and Melcombe Regis from at least the 1840s.

Thomas Mitchell Carter was baptized at Wyke in 1841. He got married and - Jeez - moved to the East End, where my grandfather was born in 1887 in - Mile Bloody End.

Bloody hell! Perhaps Edwards should test my DNA.

Hi Mick,
Do you by any chance own an old family trunk that might contain dubious items of clothing covered in stains????

Amanda

[Stewart P Evans]

Surely...?

Have consulted a few Geneo books to assist with deciphering old scrip .
Initially I could make out the letters dec, Is it possibly 'seen decd', shorthand for deceased?

Surely it's 'Seen', followed by someone's initials?

[mickreed]

Hi Mick,
Do you by any chance own an old family trunk that might contain dubious items of clothing covered in stains????

Amanda

That's probably what I saw my granddad burning when I was a nipper.

[Jeff Leahy]

There wasn't


We don't know for sure what Aaron Kosminski suffered from.

From the scant evidence that we have, paranoid-type schizophrenia is likely, but that's the best we can venture.

As I said in my first post, I worked with schizophrenics and have some knowledge of the disease (it's actually a spectrum of disorders rather than just one, but be that as it may).

That Kosminski suffered from schizophrenia is in no way evidence that he was a violent murderer.

Using this as evidence for him being the Ripper is incredibly weak.

Most schizophrenics are withdrawn, not violent. Most violent crimes are not committed by schizophrenics.

It is possible that the Whitechapel murderer had a layered mental illness such as schizophrenia and some other condition like a personality disorder - he was surely a psychopath.

There have been schizophrenic serial killers, but they had other disorders as well.

Schizophrenia on its own is not enough to identify Kosminski as Jack the Ripper.

In fact, if the symptoms described for him are true, he seems less likely to be the Whitechapel murderer, because if he was having a psychotic episode he would be both obviously bonkers - alerting the target - and likely suffering from disordered thinking. Such a person seems unlikely to possess the planning and execution abilities we see in these murders.

The claim that schizophrenia comes in "waves" is also inaccurate. Psychotic episodes occur periodically where the person loses touch with reality, but they will experience symptoms to a greater or lesser degree from onset of the disorder. There may be periods of relative lucidity, but the illness doesn't go away as this terminology seems to suggest.

Macnaghten and Swanson apparently suspected Kosminski based on pretty spurious reasoning. I've already posted about the primitive Victorian ideas of mental illness and the lack of evidence for Kosminski's "compulsive masturbation" which looks like confirmation bias on the part of contemporaries.

Hi Mabase …When turning up ten years late for a party, it might do you well to check many of the thousands of posts created on the subject on the two leading ripper forums.

Of course if your going back to the beginning we can't know for certain Aarons precise illness as you would require a direct one on one analysis.

And all we have are the minimal records we have. And some of us have taken the trouble of taking everything we have and discussing those records with leading authorities on this subject.

I've not actually analysed those records with anyone that does not believe Aaron Kosminski was suffering a form of schizophrenia. However I accept that there is now much thinking about the illness being a syndrome.. of which i have been a leading proponent on the subject on various message boards. I've also been a leading proponent on serial killers suffering a mixture of traits scoring high on the sociopathic scale doesn't preclude you from also having schizophrenia.

If Aaron were a schizophrenic he wasn't typical, in that compulsive masturbation is unusual. Schizophrenics tend to have a low sex drive.

I won't go into detail on this thread as its rather off subject and my posts on the matter are readily available as are Dr Lars Davidson's comments in 'Definitive Story' some of which I agree with.

'Psychotic Episodes' tend to be cyclicur. As I've said typically last 12-18 weeks… periods of recovery in-between can vary from suffer to suffer as know two cases are identical. We know kosminski had periods of lucidity as he was reported in court. Dr Davidson referred to Aarons illness as hebephrenic… But as I've pointed out on many occasions he made this dyagnosis based on Aaron's age. the known on set of the illness and his decent into Catatonic state. Paraniod Schizophrenics by and large tend to be older and not reach the catatonic state until much later. But as you correctly observe latest thinking points towards a syndrome rather than these old categories which were largely used by Dr Davidson to explain a very complicated subject to a mass audience in simple terms and very quickly..

Clearly I've continually pointed out that schizophrenics are "No more likely than other members of society to commit violent crimes" and also written and published a number of surveys that contradict that satement, but only very slightly a very small percentage.

I've also postulated that the JtR murders are not typical Paraniod serial killer murders and have asked the question are they more like modern 'Spree' killings in their execution. Far more typical of disorganised psychotic attacks?

Just to pick up on some other points raised here… The kosminski family were master Taylors running a mass producing factory called a sweat shop.. producing Mantals for the west end..they were not typically poor.

If you check accounts given by both Cox and Sagar you will note they watched a man in the Eastend at a certain premises. Like most accounts there are various problems with these but they describe a man that was almost certainly the killer. And based on new DNA evidence it now seems reasonable to balance these accounts with what is known about Aaron Kosminski.

It is said the man who was insane was placed in a private asylum in Surrey. And Martin Fido only checked the records at Colney Hatch…so perhaps he was looking in the wrong place? Just a thought

Yours Jeff

[GUT]

Surely it's 'Seen', followed by someone's initials?

I reckon

First read I thought it was Rec'd, but wouldn't be able to argue against "Seen".

[Amanda]

DNA test

That's probably what I saw my granddad burning when I was a nipper.

Hi Mick,

Ahh, best get your mouth swabs in the post to Dr.Louhelainen.....

Amanda

[Chris]

Without revealing any further information about 'M', can you tell me if they have directly confirmed to yourself or to Rob that they are indeed the source of the mDNA and that you are satisfied with that information?
I was wondering if, for the purposes of clarifying the timeline with regards to samples collected and the testing of the shawl, you were able to give an approximate date as to when the samples were obtained from 'M'?

What I can say from my own knowledge is that Russell Edwards was supplied with M's contact details some months after the date given in the book for the extraction of the relevant material from the "shawl".

[Trevor Marriott]

Thanks Mick

Yep, 7 years I won't be getting back.

Monty

Just think if you had committed a murder you would have been coming out Friday

[wolfie1]

First read I thought it was Rec'd, but wouldn't be able to argue against "Seen".

I agree with seen, however why would the writer alter the design of the letter s in the next word.

[GUT]

So come on all you 'Johnny-come-latelys' - top that claim!

Damn, I'm such an egotistical idiot - sorry I can't help it.

Well I was 10 when I was first told about Jack and Dorset, and then given my first book on him.

[GUT]

I agree with seen, however why would the writer alter the design of the letter s in the next word.

G'day Wolfie

Sorry but which next word do you mean?