Two things that don't make sense!

[Supe]

Tom,

I wonder then if Barnett had similar motives for saying the key had been lost.

That in turn is an interesting observation. If nothing else, a whole lot of butt-covering going on that day.

Don.

[Robert]

Hi Don

Re your article :

I just cannot believe that McCarthy, in an attempt to dodge a possible charge of living off immoral earnings, would enter that room at the risk of getting blood on his clothing and possibly ending up charged with Kelly's murder.

Also, if McCarthy did have a key, would he not have given it to Bowyer when he sent him on his errand? Bowyer would have been told not to hang around if Kelly was out, or still asleep. He'd have been given the key so that he could go in and get the rent - either by waking Kelly up, or simply taking the box and leaving.

And how could McCarthy have inadvertently locked the door when leaving, if Bowyer had already tried the door minutes before and been reduced to looking through the window?

Bowyer seems to have spent a bit of time at the window because he describes looking through the window twice. Maybe he threw up after the first look. But also, he may not have been able to get McCarthy alone in the shop when he first returned - there may have been customers. Bowyer according to his story (if one can believe it) seems to have been aware of the need not to raise a panic. Perhaps waiting for McCarthy to be alone took up a bit of time.

[Fiona]

Missing Key

Hi all

I tend to agree with Don about the missing key. I also think that McCarthy could have been playing for time. Letting property in the full knowledge that it is being used by prostitutes is (and was) illegal. I think the last thing Jack McC would have wanted was police crawling all over Miller's Ct and asking him questions. The problem with the door would have given him a while to collect his thoughts while he went in search of an axe.

Kind regards
Fiona

[DVV]

Hi all

I tend to agree with Don about the missing key. I also think that McCarthy could have been playing for time. Letting property in the full knowledge that it is being used by prostitutes is (and was) illegal. I think the last thing Jack McC would have wanted was police crawling all over Miller's Ct and asking him questions. The problem with the door would have given him a while to collect his thoughts while he went in search of an axe.

Kind regards
Fiona

Hi Fiona,
I hardly understand your logic... Mac Carthy had the key (= legal), but behaved as he had not (=illegal), in order to avoid suspicion from the police...?
And what was the police supposed to believe? That Mary Kelly wasn't a prostitute (?!), or that she was, but that Mac Carthy wasn't aware of it ?!

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:
"Whatever his motivations for loitering where he did at that time, his actions and later admissions are simply not consistent with "homelessness", especially if he was the man seen by Sarah Lewis. The Victoria Home sold daily and weekly tickets which could be purchased as late as 12.00am, after which time the doors were closed to all but ticket-holders. 12.00am was the cut-off point, and if Hutchinson "usually" slept there, he'd have known about it. Bit odd, then, that he embarked upon a 13-mile hoof from Romford in dismal weather conditions in the certainty that his home would be closed to him by two and half hours by the time he arrived in Whitechapel, and that he didn't have much "night" left by that stage.

Oh, and no money to pay for a bed anyway."

Just like David says, Ben, this is a very good post. I´ve given it some thought, and the only thing that I can come up with that can perhaps motivate these things, is that Hutchinson perhaps felt he stood a good chance of being let in without paying until he had the money. He stated that he lived at the Victoria Home, and I guess he may have had a chum or two amongst the ones who guarded the door. We can see in the cases of the canonicals, that they urged their doormen not to let their beds, though they had no money.
If this was the case, however, Hutch was obviously mistaken, but that can of course be due to somebody else doing that guarding than who he expected, or perhaps all beds had been let for the night.
Another outside possibility is that he perhaps felt that he could pick the money up on the road.
No doubt, though, these are far-fetched guesses, and your post points out a very strange behaviour indeed, Ben!

The best,
Fisherman

[Salome]

David, I believe that what Fiona said was that she felt McCarthy would have had keys to the rooms in the building that he owned and that he pretended not to have in order to buy some time to think about what he was going to say to the police when they arrived.

Just another thought, could it be possible that he may have wanted to buy time for the trail to go cold in case bloodhounds were to be used?

[Tom_Wescott]

With all due respect to Fiona Rule (cool name, by the way), that explanation doesn't make sense. If he wanted to buy time he would have waited to contact the police. I can only think of two explanations: 1) He really didn't have the key, and 2) Like Don says, he didn't want to admit to owning the only known key to a locked room with a dead girl inside.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Stephen Thomas]

A second shameless plug: the idea McCarthy was getting a cut of Mary's nightly take is discussed here: Time is on My Side in a disseration by . . . oh someone or other.

Hi Don

Yes, an excellent dissertation by whoever.

A minor point, but Time Is On My Side by the Rolling Stones is just an inferior cover version of the original by magnificent New Orleans soul diva Irma Thomas.....

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nItr172GOYM&feature=related

[DVV]

Salome,
I'm afraid that all these speculations about Mac Carthy are quite beyond me...
Better open a bottle of cahors and see what happen on this thread!

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

... good wine, indeed...
As you can guess, I opened it with a chain saw, pretending that I have no corkscrew, so that my wife would never know the drunkard I am...

[Tom_Wescott]

DMV,

Nobody is speculating that McCarthy was the killer. Merely that he wanted to avoid as much suspicion as possible, which is perfectly understandable.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

Almost true, Tom,
but haven't I read "bloodhounds" somewhere above?

Amitiés,
David

[Ben]

Hi Fisherman,

A reasonable suggestion there. An important thing to bear in mind is that the Victoria Home was a cut above the likes of Crossingham's and all the other dodgy dossers in and around Dorset Street. It adhered to a much stricter entrance policy, was much larger, and given that it catered for men only, was never going to be completely full of an evening. His intention could well have been to earn cash en route home, but against this is the fact that he arrived at his destination two hours after its closure. He was unlikely to be admitted to the VH without paying; something that he could have acheived at other doss houses such as Crossingham's - where he admitted to loitering right outside. The fact that he spurned this availability of shelter, despite its close proximity, suggests very strongly that he wasn't actively seeking a roof over his head.

Best regards,
Ben

[Steve F]

Suspect Behaviour

I really feel in my gut that Huthinsons behaviour was dubious and that the last thing as a motive for it wasLOVE
Also his detailed description of the man with MJK after such a brief look and in dodgy light......?
Well.....?
Stev

[Tom_Wescott]

Almost true, Tom,
but haven't I read "bloodhounds" somewhere above?

Amitiés,
David

Possibly. The police had previously hired two bloodhounds. But they had been sent home by the time of Kelly's murder. This is a point of fact and not speculation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott