Face of the Ripper?

[Scott Nelson]

He probably did, but he took it off every time he entered a barber's shop.

[Adam Went]

JR:

Exactly! Which would have helped him no end, to just blend in with the crowd and have no distinguishing figures. Many people in London in 1888 were genuinely looking for some soft of man-beast hybrid, frothing at the mouth and babbling unintelligibly.....when infact, the exact opposite was most likely true.

Ben:

That's true, but given how common moustaches were in that era, the odds and percentages are stacked firmly in favour of it being the case. It would be fantastic if a photo was dug up somewhere (perhaps in Poland) of him before he left for England, or in his first couple of years there....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Ben]

Hi Adam,

That's true, but given how common moustaches were in that era, the odds and percentages are stacked firmly in favour of it being the case.

Moustaches were undoubtedly more common back then, but one wonders whether the 22-year-old Klosowski was able to pull off the full facial furniture that was so evident in the photographos taken some years later. It would indeed be a great to see a SK photograph circa 1888.

All the best,
Ben

[Jonathan H]

If you want to see the face of a major Ripper suspect -- one which is potentially a good match for Lawende's Gentilish/Sailorish description -- then get a hold of the 'Ripperologist' which has an article by Andy Spallek, who found new photos of Montie Druitt from his Winchester Days.

In one, a group shot, Druitt is clowning around with the other students. Blown up he appears to have broad-shoulders, and a developing moustache.

The face of Jack the Ripper...?

[Adam Went]

Ben:

It very much depends on the person and how quickly and strongly they go through puberty, but very generally speaking (and speaking from experience) the average male will have to start shaving around the age of 15-16. By the time they are around 19-20, shaving is almost a daily necessity and it would be possible to grow a decent beard or moustache should the desire arise.

I don't think by the age of almost 23 during the Ripper murders that Klosowski would have had much difficulty in growing a moustache, even if it wasn't quite as bushy as the one you see in the later photographs.

Jonathan H:

Did you know that Klosowski was a keen sailor himself and at one stage where he was doing reasonably well in himself in the 1890's, he actually owned his own sail boat that he used to sail up and down the coast in? Not much of a stretch to say he would have paraded around looking like a sailor either....

As for Druitt, he's almost the exact antithesis to everything we've come to know about JTR in the last 122 years.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Ben]

Hi Adam,

By the time they are around 19-20, shaving is almost a daily necessity

I know a great many people for whom the above did not hold true, but yes, it depends on the individual. Ultimately, I don't think it likely that an 1888 Klosowski would have worn the full black tache that we see in later photos, or, by extension, than he would have looked older than his 22 or 23 years at the time of the ripper murders.

Not much of a stretch to say he would have paraded around looking like a sailor either....

Perhaps when he was living in Hastings, yes.

All the best,
Ben

[Rubyretro]

I take your point, Garry, but if the witnesses descriptions can't be relied on, why is the e-fit so like Chapman?

I think that the person doing the e-fit had seen the photo of Chapman first
and was influenced by it.

[Jonathan H]

To Adam

Yes but Chapman was Jewish and the suspect seen by Lawende is described as a Gentile, hence that witness being 'confronted' with Gentile suspects: Sadler and Grainger.

By the way who is this 'we'?

In that sweeping time-frame you manage to exclude Macnaghten and his preferred suspect, which are the years 1891 to 1914?

So Druitt is the anti-thesis of the Ripper, hey?

You mean like Oswald is exactly the wrong sort of person to have killed JFK?

[Natalie Severn]

To Adam

Yes but Chapman was Jewish and the suspect seen by Lawende is described as a Gentile, hence that witness being 'confronted' with Gentile suspects: Sadler and Grainger.

Jonathan,
George Chapman was not Jewish. He was a Polish immigrant who came to the UK in either 1887 or 1888 after having just been awarded to practise at the level of a "Junior Surgeon" in February 1887 from the Praga Hospital in Warsaw.His real name was Severin Klosowski and he was a Catholic. But he could converse in Yiddish apparently although his native tongue was Polish and Polish books were found in his bedroom on his arrest in 1902.
I have always thought he was a dead ringer for the "original " e-fit myself.The one produced in 1888 in the Illustrated Police News of November 24th.You could be looking at Chapman himself it isso like the above photo of him.
Best
Norma

[Jonathan H]

You're quite right Natalie.

Sorry, in my haste rushing from breakfast to the bus I misrembered the Polish part of Chapman as Polish-Jew.

And the other part ...? About Druitt potentially resembling Lawende's description.

I can never get a poster to address this idea. It's either, well he did not look like other witnesses' dexcriptions. This is true, but then other witnesses, so far as we know, were not used by police to confront suspects like Lawende. Or, Druitt could not have been the Ripper, therefore this witness description is irrelevant, or some other deflection.

I can understand people not believing that Macnaghten is correct, for any number of strong reasons. But to not simply acknowledge that Druitt is potentially a good fit for Lawende is right inside the It-musn't-be-Oswald Buff territory.

[Natalie Severn]

Jonathan,
There could certainly be said to be similarity to Lawende"s"s description,in my view.There is a hint of the man looking a bit rough -if thats the correct word-like a sailor was how Lawende considered he looked.Of course if Druitt was the murderer he may well have been looking a bit wild eyed and dishevelled after the Berner Street killing!
There are other descriptions that are a good match too.PC Smith described a respectably dressed,dark haired, pale complexioned man of about 28 , carrying a newspaper parcel.Hutchinson described Mr Astrakhan to be wearing almost the exact clothing that Druitt was found wearing when fished from the River-down to the Watch chain,tie pin, kid gloves,dark clothing etc-----but then it was standard dress for anybody who wanted to be fashionable.He thought his man looked nearer 35 but then gas light casts shadows and ages the skin.This man was also carrying a "parcel"!
Best
Norma

[Adam Went]

Ben:

Put simply, there's no way that we can know any of this for certain unless somehow a photo surfaces of Klosowski from somewhere closer to, or in 1888. What we do have though is the statement of Lucy Baderski, who he had known since 1889, who never mentioned anything different about his appearance from when she had first known him. And we've already been over the Levissohn statement before, although that could be partially erroneous.

Either way, I disagree that at near 23 years of age, Klosowski wouldn't have been able to grow a moustache. Especially for somebody with his sort of butch, manly appearance - it might well have come sooner for him. The only difference might be, as you said, that it wasn't the full thing we see in the photos.

Jonathan H:

"We" is the general population of Ripperology and all the ideas that have been put forward for the potential profile of JTR.

You keep mentioning Joseph Lawende, but he was far from being the only witness. Infact, the majority of major witness descriptions sound very little like Druitt.

I cannot believe that anybody would give Macnaghten any credence whatsoever by now. The man wasn't even part of the Ripper investigation in 1888! There was probably more errors than truths in his memorandum, incoluding what he said of Druitt, so basically the whole case is built on mistruths. And he had MICHAEL OSTROG in his list. I rest my case.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jonathan H]

OK, thanks Adam.

I've addressed the arguments you raise before, with counter-arguments, and so we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Jonathan H]

Thanks for that Natalie.

You make a good point about the style of Druitt's dress as a gentleman [and a corpse] and the vivid, flamboyant figure whom Hutchinson described -- and Abberline seemed to take this sighting very seriously.

Personally, I suscribe to Tom Cullen's dismissive opinion that 'Astrakhan Man' is imaginative, one straight from music hall -- specifically the theatrical stereotype of the villainous Jew.

He is swarthy, whereas Lawende's young sailor was 'fair', and this fits Druitt, at least generically, very well.

Why focus on Lawende at the expense of the other witnesses. Because they were not -- so far as we know -- utilised by the police to 'confront' actual Ripper suspects [both of whom were Gentiles, not Jews]

[Ben]

Hi Adam,

Either way, I disagree that at near 23 years of age, Klosowski wouldn't have been able to grow a moustache.

Just to clarify, I didn't say that he wouldn't have been able to grow a moustache - only that we don't know that he did or even could (at least to the prolific extent that we see in the photographs). Just a minor quibble though: I personally wouldn't desribe Klosowski as "butch or "manly". He looks rather pint-sized and diminutive to me.

Best regards,
Ben