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**Robert** · 02-19-2008, 09:44 PM

3rd June 2007, 09:43 PM
I'll say six - the C5 and another we may or may not have heard of.

Stan

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Glenn L Andersson3rd June 2007, 09:50 PM
Jukka,

What's 'banak'?

All the best

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Glenn L Andersson3rd June 2007, 10:18 PM
Graham,

Take away Tabram, and I am with you.

I have to say, though, that I am asounded to see that I wasn't the only one who voted '3' - seems like two other voters shared that idea. Needless to say I am in shock.

All the best

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PerryMason3rd June 2007, 10:54 PM
Hi again,

Since MacKenzie and Coles have been mentioned, I think the same man, not the Ripper, but the same man may have killed both. Look at the similarities in their faces in the morgue shots...they could have been sisters they look so similar.

My best regards.

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Sam Flynn3rd June 2007, 11:11 PM
Jukka,

What's 'banak'?
I think Jukka made a typo, Glenn, and meant to write "banaj"

(Sorry - I meant "banal")

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Sam Flynn3rd June 2007, 11:15 PM
I have to say, though, that I am asounded to see that I wasn't the only one who voted '3' - seems like two other voters shared that idea. Needless to say I am in shock.
No need to be shocked, Glenn - "victim" doesn't have to mean "murder victim", after all. I'd be very surprised if Jack "successfully" butchered to death a mere three women without at least assaulting a good few more in the process.

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Graham3rd June 2007, 11:16 PM
Hi again,

Since MacKenzie and Coles have been mentioned, I think the same man, not the Ripper, but the same man may have killed both. Look at the similarities in their faces in the morgue shots...they could have been sisters they look so similar.

My best regards.

Hiya!

Do you really think that MacKenzie and Coles are so much alike? 'Death Becomes Her', and all that, but I think that Coles looks years younger. And I think that Sadler had a rather close shave apropos the hangman....

Cheers,

Graham

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PerryMason4th June 2007, 12:17 AM
Hi Graham,

You may be right, perhaps all dead people can look a bit like each other...but I was struck by how similar I thought they looked.

As are Polly, and Annie....a bit similar dont you think? Again, maybe only in death, but I am paying attention to things like that to help isolate whether a "type" may have factored in the actual Whitechapel Murderer's total.

Physically anyway. But by what I can tell, Liz and Mary at least were atypical...Liz because despite her flaws I think she was still considered somewhat attractive, and Mary for the obvious youth and looks. Using that notion though leaves me puzzled about Kate. Not young, but probably not "homely", as I respectfully suggest the early victims were. I think Kate may have been the most fit and able one though...capable of a fight.

My best Graham.

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franko4th June 2007, 12:17 AM
Hi Michael,
Since MacKenzie and Coles have been mentioned, I think the same man, not the Ripper, but the same man may have killed both. Look at the similarities in their faces in the morgue shots...they could have been sisters they look so similar.
I'm with Graham here. Apart from that they don't look particularly similar to me, their deaths weren't very similar either. The 2 cuts to McKenzie's throat seemed more like stabs, while Coles' single throat wound was caused by a sawing motion, once from left to right, then from right to left and then back again. Furthermore, Coles sustained some injury to the back of her head, as if she had fallen backwards or been thrown down. This wasn't mentioned in the case of McKenzie.

All the best,
Frank

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PerryMason4th June 2007, 12:21 AM
Hi Michael,

I'm with Graham here. Apart from that they don't look particularly similar to me, their deaths weren't very similar either. The 2 cuts to McKenzie's throat seemed more like stabs, while Coles' single throat wound was caused by a sawing motion, once from left to right, then from right to left and then back again. Furthermore, Coles sustained some injury to the back of her head, as if she had fallen backwards or been thrown down. This wasn't mentioned in the case of McKenzie.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Franko,

No dispute from me my friend, I agree fully. I lean towards Millwood and Wilson as possibles as I said, but not the two above.

What I was commenting on was that perhaps they might have been killed by a single killer based on what I percieved as a similarity to their look. The above post to Graham explains that more.

My best Franko.

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halomanuk4th June 2007, 03:18 PM
Hi all,
the murder of Coles certainly wasnt a ripper murder,but maybe a poor attempt at a copy-cat before being disturbed by the police.

While JTR was still in the headlines it gave a lot of people the chance to copy-cat as best they could and pray that JTR got the blame...it never seemed to work though with any of the latter cases i think...

Although my own poll seems to be throwing up interesting results !!!

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jeffl4th June 2007, 04:08 PM
No need to be shocked, Glenn - "victim" doesn't have to mean "murder victim", after all. I'd be very surprised if Jack "successfully" butchered to death a mere three women without at least assaulting a good few more in the process.

Hi Sam, Does that mean we can count the poor unfortunate woman (sorry cant remember her name) who colapsed from a heart attack after reading about the murders, as a victim too?

I guess everyone knows my count would include Tabram...I'd go with the police on the ground rather than McNaughten. May even consider Emma Smith and at a stretch Alice McKenzie...the discription of Ada Wilsons attacker fits my favoured JtR discription.

As Jack was clearly a Strangler bye trade I'd also like to know about early attacks NOT including a knife assort but attempted Strangulations and robbery.

Eight to nine probable. Although if we conclude JtR was of Jewish origin perhaps Glenn is correct on Stride (Why would he shout Lipski?).....did teh police interveiw Pipeman? or were they together?

My gut instinct takes me with Abberline however....so I will count Stride in for now.

Jeff

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Sam Flynn4th June 2007, 06:24 PM
Hi Sam, Does that mean we can count the poor unfortunate woman (sorry cant remember her name) who colapsed from a heart attack after reading about the murders, as a victim too?

Hi Jeff,

I think there have been convictions for manslaughter by causing a heart attack, but only if the guilty party took some direct action in connection with the victim, such as robbing them at knifepoint. BTW, I'm not familiar with the incident in question, so I can't really help you with the lady's name. Perhaps it was Mrs Twitch

As Jack was clearly a Strangler bye trade
There are still considerable grounds for doubt on that point, however. It's not clear that Jack was an habitual strangler at all.

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halomanuk7th June 2007, 12:05 PM
I dont think JTR was a classic 'strangler' ...he used that method to silence the KNOWN C5 to be able to slit their throats and get down to whatever his real MO was,obviously to obtain or study the organs.

Again,if you look at the earlier crude methods on some of the other victims,especially Tabram it does seem that he was more of an opportunist,killing any way he could (if he killed Tabram etc).

Basically,even though he would know the best spots in Whitechapel to perform his attack,the choice of 'unfortunate' was random - all these women were in the wrong place at the wrong time,with Kelly being the possible exception.

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hawkes30th November 2007, 07:40 PM
i would say 10 or 11. i find it hard to accept that there were a number of butchers who all committed their crimes at the same time.

the differences in "style" could be experimenting or something by JTR

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BlackKat25th January 2008, 03:44 AM
Hey all

Nichols
Chapman
Eddowes
Kelly?

I'm still out on Kelly. I tend to lean more to the side that he did in fact kill Kelly. Most SK's won't change how they kill but I've heard some people state that "JTR could not have done this because it was inside and she was too young" well - Ted bundy didn't always kill outside but he did kill them all none the less. However, I can see how that might sound naive of me.

Age? If he didn't get a kill in Oct. Let's just say he didn't because he was laying low, the heat got too close, he was sick, or whatever the case might have been. Then Kelly (drunk prostitute) <~ at least that fit his usual, might have been a kill that was a fix for him. The streets were a little more tricky for him after the other women's deaths. He had more of a chance for getting caught. If he went inside Kelly's residence he was out of watchful eyes, and perhaps he really got to do what he'd loved to have done out on the streets but he never had enough time. ALSO - if this was a fix for him, almost as if sating a lust for blood, he could have really gone mad with the blood lust, and thus the extensive mutilation. Then again, perhaps this was a progression with him, and thus it got worse and worse.

I don't think the torso murders were Jack at all. No heads - limbs. A SK can progress and kill more and more violently (kelly) but it doesn't usually escalate into cutting off limbs - not in this manner. It certainly won't before there is even a clear progression of mutilation. (geesh I sure hope I'm making sense to more than just myself) Cutting off heads completely just doesn't seem like Jack's thing. (and certainly not leaving the head at the scene at least etc)

I can't really be certain that he had anything to do with the other possible ripper victims either. I don't see JTR assaulting women, and just cutting them a little, or anything else, and letting them get away to turn him in, or give his description. I think he was much to smart for that and ahead of his time. Did he progress to killing from lewd behavior? Possibly. He may have had perversions that are unknown(he'd had to have something), but I do think his first kill was nichols, and yes I agree he hit the ground running.

If there were more kills than those, I think it's after Jack moved on to another area. (out of London)

Sorry it was so long...

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paul emmett25th January 2008, 04:46 AM
I say six, cuz for one thing look alikes seem to be Nichols, Chapman and Tabram.

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caz25th January 2008, 05:40 PM
...I don't think the torso murders were Jack at all. No heads - limbs. A SK can progress and kill more and more violently (kelly) but it doesn't usually escalate into cutting off limbs - not in this manner. It certainly won't before there is even a clear progression of mutilation...

Hi BlackKat,

Not sure what you are saying here. Do you mean a killer certainly won't start cutting off limbs before there is a clear progression of mutilation? If so, where is the torso murderer's own clear progression, assuming he wasn't Jack? Or do you think each torso murder was the work of someone who simply needed to dispose of their victim and hide her identity? There have obviously been plenty of one-off (and therefore first-time) killers who were perfectly capable of cutting off limbs, no previous mutilation experience required.

So could the same not apply to a serial killer, or to Jack himself, at any stage of his 'apprenticeship'? Would the rules apply differently to him?

Love,

Caz
X

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BlackKat25th January 2008, 08:45 PM
Hiya!

Thanks for chiming in. I knew that maybe it wouldn't be so clear as to what I was saying. I was thinking faster than I was typing. I should have definately placed in my thoughts that it was my own opinion that he didn't have anything to do with the torso murders, and explain more clearly. My apologies.

Now usually, not ALL the time, but sometimes you can see a progression with some SK's and there are those that always do the same thing, with only small deviations, I'm sure that some would theorize that JTR could have been one that cut off limbs, but in my opinion I do not think that was something he would do.

We can clearly see that he didn't care if the bodies were found, he didn't try to hide them. He either wanted them to be recognized, or he just truely didn't care about that aspect. So why then would he cut off a head and arms. Arms later being found in the Thames.

Pinchin St?= The head again wasn't found and she was wrapped in sacking. That doesn't sound like our man Jack. I mean if he did progress to decapitating ..alright, now we have sacking. Doesn't fit. Why not then cut off the head of Mary Kelly completely? (For those that think he certainly was her killer too.)

My reason for thinking he didn't commit these murders is do to his cruel and complete nonchalant, or detached concern he had for leaving the other bodies, and never trying to hide his victims.

Oh Caz, yes I certainly agree there have been many killers that have been capable and have cut off limbs, no doubt about that. I also agree it can be their first kill.

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**caz** · 03-05-2008, 06:52 PM

Hi BlackKat,

I have only just now seen your reply to my torso-based questions back in January. This is due to my failure to get back to the original thread before the crash, plus the length of time it's taking me to get back up to date with all the new post-crash threads.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant about progression and not seeing Jack as a killer who would dismember, hide or otherwise dispose of any of his victims. While I agree that it seems highly unlikely that he was responsible for the torso murders (plural), as a series, it's not unheard of for someone who kills and kills again to include among their victims at least one individual who wasn't a total stranger, encountered on a dark night in the street (as I assume the accepted ripper victims were), but someone who could be linked to their killer in some way or other, either directly or circumstantially. If this had applied to Jack (and we don't know that it never did), then his best and most likely course of action would have been to deviate from his slash, rip and dash policy and make some attempt to cover up the crime this time. I see nothing that would prevent him from doing what any other one-off killer might do in similar circumstances.

Love,

Caz
X

**George Hutchinson** · 03-05-2008, 07:18 PM

I like the way Franko did an 'odds' thing, so I'm going to plagarise it here :

Annie Millwood: 75-25
Ada Wilson: 10-90
Emma Smith: 0-100 (Though involvement in the gang I would say 10-90)
Martha Tabram: 90-10
Polly Nichols: 100-0
Annie Chapman: 100-0
Susan Ward: 75-25
Elizabeth Stride: 90-10
Catherine Eddowes: 100-0
Whitehall Torso: 0-100
Mary Jane Kelly: 100-0
Rose Mylett: 0-100
Elizabeth Jackson: 0-100
Alice McKenzie: 25-75
Pinchin Street Torso: 0-100
Frances Coles: 0-100

PHILIP

**Mike Covell** · 03-05-2008, 08:38 PM

Philip,

I am hoping to see a video of you doing that using your hands like John Mcwhatever his name is, you know the strange horse racing guy!!

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