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  • On the Radio

    Every day on the radio here they have an "On This Day Segment" today's included death of Martha "Thought to be JtR's first victim".
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

  • #2
    Originally posted by GUT View Post
    "Thought to be JtR's first victim".
    But probably not.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Harry D View Post
      But probably not.
      To be clear the comment about 1st victim was from the radio not me.
      G U T

      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by GUT View Post
        To be clear the comment about 1st victim was from the radio not me.
        Yeah, I got that.

        Out of interest, what is your stance on Tabram?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Harry D View Post
          Yeah, I got that.

          Out of interest, what is your stance on Tabram?
          Probably about 50:50, what day is it, Oh yeah Friday so he done it, if it was Thursday No way.
          G U T

          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Harry D View Post
            But probably not.
            Possibly not. If it wasn't for MacNaghten's 'definite' claim of 5 victims and 5 victims only I suspect that much more credence would be given to the possibility that Tabram was killed by the same man as Nichols and Chapman.
            I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by GUT View Post
              Probably about 50:50, what day is it, Oh yeah Friday so he done it, if it was Thursday No way.
              The devil's in the detail, as they say.

              Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
              Possibly not. If it wasn't for MacNaghten's 'definite' claim of 5 victims and 5 victims only I suspect that much more credence would be given to the possibility that Tabram was killed by the same man as Nichols and Chapman.
              Why only those two?

              Comment


              • #8
                RIP, Martha. It's getting to be anniversary season again.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                  Possibly not. If it wasn't for MacNaghten's 'definite' claim of 5 victims and 5 victims only I suspect that much more credence would be given to the possibility that Tabram was killed by the same man as Nichols and Chapman.
                  Seventy per cent of the voters on the ajdacent thread about Martha Tabram, "Ripper victim or not?", have gone for a "Yes!" on that question, so we´re pretty much already there, I think, Colin!

                  All the best,
                  Fisherman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Tabram's murder seems too frenzied and has none of Jack's usual signatures. Obviously the counter-argument is that Tabram was a 'trial run' of sorts before the killer could refine his technique. Would the murderer really make such a radical change in MO from one victim to the next? I prefer to place her in the Emma Smith category as a gang hit rather than a Ripper victim.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I agree. All of the others were by severance of the great vessels of the neck implying at least a reasonable knowledge of anatomy. There was no attempt at that in Tabram's case and the weapons used were different. Apart possibly from the last one, when I believe there was a personal motive, there was no uncontrolled frenzy displayed as there was in the Tabram case. I believe that JTR may have got the idea from the Tabram case but he was not the perpetrator.
                      Prosector

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Too many similarities with the other murders. Difference can be attributed to the fact that Serial killers are known to refine there technique, which may appear as a different MO, but only really just a stage in their progression.

                        And again if it weren't for mcnaughten it would be the c6 which I also think it should be.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hey Abby,

                          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          Too many similarities with the other murders.
                          How many is too many?

                          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          Difference can be attributed to the fact that Serial killers are known to refine there technique which may appear as a different MO, but only really just a stage in their progression.
                          Not sure you can call using a completely different MO as 'refining' one's technique. Tabram's killer was a wild stabber who went into overkill. No throat slashing, no slicing, no attempt to eviscerate the victim, nothing in his actions to link them with the other murders.

                          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          And again if it weren't for mcnaughten it would be the c6 which I also think it should be.
                          Needless to say, Ripperology is such a highly contentious field that even if we did have an 'Anderson Five' instead of a McNaughton, nothing would be set in stone.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                            Hey Abby,



                            How many is too many?



                            Not sure you can call using a completely different MO as 'refining' one's technique. Tabram's killer was a wild stabber who went into overkill. No throat slashing, no slicing, no attempt to eviscerate the victim, nothing in his actions to link them with the other murders.



                            Needless to say, Ripperology is such a highly contentious field that even if we did have an 'Anderson Five' instead of a McNaughton, nothing would be set in stone.
                            Hi Harry
                            How many is too many? Let's see:

                            Prostitute targeted
                            Killed with knife
                            Signs of strangulation
                            Same immediate area
                            Same time of night
                            Same immediate timeframe
                            On holiday or weekend
                            Silent kill
                            Overkill
                            Unsolved
                            Private area targeted
                            Victim on back, legs slightly apart
                            Skirt hiked up (this is the clincher)

                            Also fits the pattern sequence-victim killed beginning of month, then the next at end of month, then the next at beginning of month etc.

                            Most if not all serial killers don't start with a fully formed MO. Nor do they necessarily stick with the same one. The ripper probably started off with a few tentative attacks on women with a knife -perhaps Ada Wilson and Annie Millwood, and achieved his first successful kill with Martha. He knew he wanted to stab and kill women and use his knife. He was just unsure about how to go about it or how far he wanted to go-but learned about both as he went along.
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Every serial killer has to start somewhere...in reality, in many cases in adolescence with animals, and develop from there...but not necessarily...

                              But that first stab (sorry!) at killing a real human being...who knows...the technique may be lacking...the eventual desires may be undeveloped (repetition itself might stimulate for example)...or a serial killer, even one with great intelligence and advanced ideas might easily make a false start and be bright enough to start again with a fresh slate...

                              But even without a huge false start, and even with constant desires, he might hone his technique as he went along...we all do this with repetitive tasks so it's nothing more than human nature after all...

                              All the best

                              Dave

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