Mary Jane Wilson

[MayBea]

Thanks, C4. You are correct but I have a couple of more questions.

What about a woman who calls herself a tailor? Wouldn't that be the same as a seamstress? Or is that the same as a dressmaker?

(I seem to remember one of the Goulds calling herself a tailor. I'll look for her if your answer warrants it.)

Secondly, how does seamstress fit in with the so-called "dress lodgings"?

[MayBea]

Roy C asked me to find some interesting neighbours of Mary Wilson.

I thought her street was decidedly Welsh but only 1 percent were born in Wales. Six of 600 people on Penrhyn Street in 1881.

However, I found a "Davies" living at 8 Penrhyn at the end of her court, born in Liverpool.


Walter Davies

Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Rose Ann Davies
Gender: Male
Where born: L pool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 8 Penrhyn St
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Lab In Iron Works

[Roy Corduroy]

1881
Address: 19 Penrhyn St 7 Ct
Event Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Head Robert Wilson M 27 Baker L Pool, Lancashire, England
Wife Mary Wilson F 26 L Pool, Lancashire, England
Son Robert Wilson M 7 L Pool, Lancashire, England
Daughter Christina Wilson F 10 [Error] L Pool, Lancashire, England
Visitor John Kelly M 57 Joiner Ireland



Inside the blue box is a small segment of Penrhyn Street accesible on the old fire insurance maps online.



Its almost their address. Notice the layout of the courts. The Wilsons lived in a court.

[curious4]

Dressmaker

Thanks, C4. You are correct but I have a couple of more questions.

What about a woman who calls herself a tailor? Wouldn't that be the same as a seamstress? Or is that the same as a dressmaker?

(I seem to remember one of the Goulds calling herself a tailor. I'll look for her if your answer warrants it.)

Secondly, how does seamstress fit in with the so-called "dress lodgings"?

Hallo MayBea,

In general a dressmaker employed seamstresses. The dressmaker would meet the customer, show various designs and take the order. A tailor would make men's clothes. Then, of course, there were the sweatshops, where the employees worked under very poor conditions. Many poor people would work at home "finishing" garments and were badly paid.

I am not familiar with the term "dress lodgings".

Best wishes,
C4

[miss marple]

Dress lodgings. I wrote about these in the thread, French women in Knightsbridge. Dress lodgings , the Madame who ran the brothel would do a deal with a dressmaker to make fancy dresses for the prostitute, who was then in hock to the Madame and had to spend a lot of time on her back to pay off of the dresses. Of course that never happened, and the Madame's kept the dresses. Some dressmakers did operate as part time brothel keepers, it was a good cover. These were higher class operations usually in the West End.

Mary Kelly supposedly when to Knightsbridge to claim back some dresses she was owed. If that story is true then she did spend time in a high class brothel/
It is also true that a lot of prostitutes described themselves as seamstressess.
But Tailoring and sweat shops were the most commen form of employment in the East End

If Elsie was described as a dressmaker in 1891, shorely some mistake. She was 10 years old [ BORN 1881]and would have been at school

Miss Marple

[MayBea]

Thanks for explaining what a dress lodging is, miss marple. I'll try and get the 1891 record for Elsie Searle. She was living with her grandmother and mother in Mortlake, Surrey.

Here is another thread about Elsie from 2004 entitled Mistresses and Royal Lines.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-11/1100957326

[curious4]

Dress lodger

Dress lodgings. I wrote about these in the thread, French women in Knightsbridge. Dress lodgings , the Madame who ran the brothel would do a deal with a dressmaker to make fancy dresses for the prostitute, who was then in hock to the Madame and had to spend a lot of time on her back to pay off of the dresses. Of course that never happened, and the Madame's kept the dresses. Some dressmakers did operate as part time brothel keepers, it was a good cover. These were higher class operations usually in the West End.

Mary Kelly supposedly when to Knightsbridge to claim back some dresses she was owed. If that story is true then she did spend time in a high class brothel/
It is also true that a lot of prostitutes described themselves as seamstressess.
But Tailoring and sweat shops were the most commen form of employment in the East End

If Elsie was described as a dressmaker in 1891, shorely some mistake. She was 10 years old [ BORN 1881]and would have been at school

Miss Marple

Hello Miss M

Thank you, just goes to show that however much you read, there is always something new to learn. I have read about the old "retired" prostitutes whose job it was to watch the girls on the streets, but not come across the term dress lodger.

Best wishes,
C4

[MayBea]

Here is the 91 Census record for Elsie Searle. She is, of course, the future wife of William John Wilson, a.k.a. Jack, and the alleged goddaughter of the Earl of Carnarvon.

Mother and grandmother are dressmakers. They are also servants of the Duke of Teck and his family who lived nearby at White Lodge. Elsie was a playmate of Princes May.


1891

2 Red Lodge Cottage
Eliza Ryan, Head Widow 71 Dressmaker, Cork, Ire.
Frances Searle, Daughter Widow 46 Dressmaker, Clapham, Surrey
Elsie Searle, Gdaughter 9 Bristol

[MayBea]

... What about a woman who calls herself a tailor? ...(I seem to remember one of the Goulds calling herself a tailor.

From Post #40 of this thread:

1881
15 Broad Street, London

Angthia (Angelica) Peyton (formerly Gould and Rawlinson)

Age:32
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relationship to Head:Wife
Where born: Yorkshire, Yorkshire, England
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Tailoress

[MayBea]

... Mary Kelly supposedly [went] to Knightsbridge to claim back some dresses she was owed. If that story is true then she did spend time in a high class brothel...
Miss Marple

Doesn't the documented fact that Mary Jane Wilson had a brother Henry, whose niece follows Mary Jane Kelly's alleged trail, by going to London where her tailoress mother lived in the West End and then ending up getting married to a tailor living on Thrawl Street* in 1887, raise your eyebrows?

*I'm guessing Daniel Reardon, at least if not both, was living at the address they gave on the marriage certificate (not an after banns lie on his part to save money) since his occupation was tailor and you said it was a common form of employment in Whitechapel.

Marriage Cert. Post #69
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7913&page=7

[MayBea]

Here are two records of Angelica Peyton, ne. Gould:

The 1869 parish record of her second marriage to John Peyton after her marriage to Adam Rawlinson/Rollinson.

The 1877 marriage certificate of her sister with her as a witness.

Therefore, Angelica went to London sometime between 1877 and 1881. Her daughter, Margaret Ellen, would have arrived sometime after 1881, perhaps after she turned 16 in 1883.

[MayBea]

I'm planning to order Ann's marriage certificates for 1885 and 1877, for marriages to Henry Dagnall and George Dixon respectively, to see if Mary Jane Wilson shows up as a witness.

The 1885 certificate has arrived and I've attached the image. As you can see, the witnesses are Thomas Dagnall and Ellen Dixon. Ellen would be Ann's sister-in-law from her first marriage to George Dixon.

Ann's sister, Mary Jane Wilson, is not a witness.

[MayBea]

Here is the 1877 marriage certificate for Mary Wilson's sister, Ann. The groom's parents are the witnesses.

[MayBea]

What, if anything, do you make of Angelica Peyton signing her name as Anglick on the certificate in Post 56?

[Livia]

I think perhaps what looks like a "k" is actually an "a".

"Angelica"

She may have been nervous. It seems she also made
an error in her surname or wrote over it.