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  #81  
Old 11-14-2018, 01:48 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
that two such creatures were operating at the same time in the same city who both just happened to be interested in post mortem mutilation is just a tad too much coincidence for me.
Very different districts at the opposite ends of the same city, and very different murders committed to very different, albeit overlapping, timescales. I just can't see the comparison, and can easily conceive of separate, independent perpetrators.

That said, I'm looking forward to the book as well, if only because I know it will be a very interesting read.
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  #82  
Old 11-14-2018, 01:58 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Very different districts at the opposite ends of the same city, and very different murders committed to very different, albeit overlapping, timescales. I just can't see the comparison, and can easily conceive of separate, independent perpetrators.

That said, I'm looking forward to the book as well, if only because I know it will be a very interesting read.
thanks Sam
I have no problem with that at all-of course I disagree-I lean somewhat heavily they were the same man, but there are major differences I concur.

but I think my earlier point stands re rarity of serial killers in 1880 time frame.

Do you or anyone knows if there is any numbers on this anywhere?
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  #83  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:21 PM
John G John G is offline
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Can you name any such dismemberment case where the abdominal wall was removed in flaps, John?
Hi Christer,

Dismembering a Body

"In addition to this, the chest and abdomen may be opened up and eviscerated. Skin, subcutaneous tissue and muscle may also be removed in square or oblong segments, often as an attempt to remove tattoos, digitis, genitalia and breasts to hinder identification." (Black, Rutty, Hainsworth, Thomson, Criminal Dismemberment: Forensic and Investigative Analysis, 2017)

In the aforementioned book, there's actually a large section of skin and subcutaneous tissue, removed as part of the dismemberment process.

Of course, with Jackson, the strips of skin and subcutaneous tissue that was removed removed also encompassed the right buttock. As there are no body organs in the buttocks this procedure was not just about evisceration.

Throughout the Torso crimes the perpetrator took steps to prevent identification. I would note that a tattoo, for instance, an identifying feature mentioned by Black, Rutty et al. would suggest that the victim was a prostitute, as ordinary women of this period didn't have tattoos.

Of course, something else was going on besides removing identifying features. Bizarrely, in the Jackson case, the strips of skin were included with the uterus and placeta. This is a highly unusual serial perpetrator with a ghoulish sense of humour, who was clearly taunting the authorities, as also evidenced by his scattering of body parts, like pieces of a puzzle: even the body parts thrown into The Thames weren't weighed down, ensuring they would float and be found.

In any event, the Kelly crime scene was radically different. You could say that the abdomen in that case was removed in section, demonstrating a superficial resemblance. Alternatively, you could say it was just hacked to pieces by a killer showing no skill at all.

Last edited by John G : 11-14-2018 at 02:27 PM.
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  #84  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:24 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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but I think my earlier point stands re rarity of serial killers in 1880 time frame.
But serial killers come in many shapes and sizes, and commit rather different crimes, which is what I see when I compare the torso cases to the JTR murders; I even see the torsos as radically different from the non-canonical Whitechapel Murders, for that matter.
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Do you or anyone knows if there is any numbers on this anywhere?
I don't think there is, but that might be related to something you've already touched upon, namely the explosion in the popular press in the late 19th Century. Before then, there were much fewer newspapers around and those that existed tended to be rather sober in nature; tales of tawdry serial crime and provincial murders were less likely to be reported than they would be in later years.

You're quite right in your earlier observation that industrialisation and urbanisation helped bring in the age of the "modern" serial offender, but the Industrial Revolution had kicked in over a century before the Ripper murders, and the populations of Britain's cities and port towns had grown accordingly. Bearing that in mind, it might be argued that, by the latter quarter of the 19th Century, the conditions were ripe for a city like London to spawn two, three or more concurrent serial offenders.
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  #85  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:31 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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But serial killers come in many shapes and sizes, and commit rather different crimes, which is what I see when I compare the torso cases to the JTR murders; I even see the torsos as radically different from the non-canonical Whitechapel Murders, for that matter.

I don't think there is, but that might be related to something you've already touched upon, namely the explosion in the popular press in the late 19th Century. Before then, there were much fewer newspapers around and those that existed tended to be rather sober in nature; tales of tawdry serial crime and provincial murders were less likely to be reported than they would be in later years.

You're quite right in your earlier observation that industrialisation and urbanisation helped bring in the age of the "modern" serial offender, but the Industrial Revolution had kicked in over a century before the Ripper murders, and the populations of Britain's cities and port towns had grown accordingly. Bearing that in mind, it might be argued that, by the latter quarter of the 19th Century, the conditions were ripe for a city like London to spawn two, three or more concurrent serial offenders.
thanks Sam
It is fascinating isn't it? morbid and sad yes, but interesting nonetheless.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #86  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:05 AM
John G John G is offline
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Just to add to my previous post.

From Black and Rutty et el., 2017:

"In addition to this, the chest and abdomen may be opened and eviscerated."

From Dr Hebbert's autopsy of Elizabeth Jackson:

"The chest had been opened in front by the mid-line. The upper part of the sternum cut through, and the contents of the chest had been removed"

From Black and Rutty et al., 2017.

" Skin, subcutaneous tissue and muscle may also be removed in square and oblong segments, often as an attempt to remove tattoos, digits, genitalia and breasts to hinder identification."

From Dr Hebbert:

"The flaps of skin and subcutaneous tissue consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls."

For a comparison of MJK and the Torso crimes see page 149 of Gordon, 2002:

"In this last case [Kelly] There were distinct traces of furious mania. The murderer having plenty of time at his disposal slashed and cut the body in all directions, evidently under the influence of frenzy." See: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...onro&f=fals e


Monroe then goes on to compare Pinchin Street with MJK.
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  #87  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:29 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Hi Christer,

Dismembering a Body

"In addition to this, the chest and abdomen may be opened up and eviscerated. Skin, subcutaneous tissue and muscle may also be removed in square or oblong segments, often as an attempt to remove tattoos, digitis, genitalia and breasts to hinder identification." (Black, Rutty, Hainsworth, Thomson, Criminal Dismemberment: Forensic and Investigative Analysis, 2017)

In the aforementioned book, there's actually a large section of skin and subcutaneous tissue, removed as part of the dismemberment process.

Of course, with Jackson, the strips of skin and subcutaneous tissue that was removed removed also encompassed the right buttock. As there are no body organs in the buttocks this procedure was not just about evisceration.

Throughout the Torso crimes the perpetrator took steps to prevent identification. I would note that a tattoo, for instance, an identifying feature mentioned by Black, Rutty et al. would suggest that the victim was a prostitute, as ordinary women of this period didn't have tattoos.

Of course, something else was going on besides removing identifying features. Bizarrely, in the Jackson case, the strips of skin were included with the uterus and placeta. This is a highly unusual serial perpetrator with a ghoulish sense of humour, who was clearly taunting the authorities, as also evidenced by his scattering of body parts, like pieces of a puzzle: even the body parts thrown into The Thames weren't weighed down, ensuring they would float and be found.

In any event, the Kelly crime scene was radically different. You could say that the abdomen in that case was removed in section, demonstrating a superficial resemblance. Alternatively, you could say it was just hacked to pieces by a killer showing no skill at all.
Yes, I know Rutty´s book. But the examples here refer to when tissue is removed to get rid of tattoos and such, and there were no tattoos or marks on the three victims we discuss, were there? Plus the killer did not even take the flaps away and destroy them, they were either left with the victim or floated down the Thames, which is why we know that they were not taken away to make identification harder.

So that´s a no-go. Plus I want examples, names, John. Cases!
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  #88  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:31 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Very different districts at the opposite ends of the same city, and very different murders committed to very different, albeit overlapping, timescales. I just can't see the comparison, and can easily conceive of separate, independent perpetrators.

That said, I'm looking forward to the book as well, if only because I know it will be a very interesting read.
Same old, same old.

Where were the victims procured? You don´t know.

There were differences - but how can we sweep the massive and odd similarities under the carpet? We can´t.

Can we say that the similarities came about for different reasons? No.

So what´s left? Nothing, Gareth.
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