The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[John G]

Hi John

I`m not sure how you can discount a witness testimony and then create the above scenario - even Schwartz didn`t have such a detailed account and he was there :-)

Hello Jon,

But some people would discount George Hutchinson's even more detailed testimony. If this is the criteria maybe he was ""there" as well!

[John G]

John, if BSM was Stride’s killer—note my use of the word “if”—then I would agree that he seems to have gained her acquiescence following the initial dust-up observed by Schwartz, as she seems to have gone willingly into the yard with him. I don’t think it’s correct to assume there was no way she would have gone willingly into the yard with him. I’m going to make a wild guess that Stride had been around customers with bad manners before, and the description that she did not scream very loudly is evidence that she did not view this as a life-threatening situation.

So how do people gain the cooperation of uncooperative people? There are two tried and tested methods, the carrot and the stick.

The carrot—perhaps he offered her the cachous. Perhaps he gave her a very handsome payment. Perhaps both.

The stick—perhaps he threatened her with additional violence if she didn’t go into the yard with him.

Stride could have decided that she just wanted to get this idiot out of her hair.

Hello Wyatt,

The difficulty is that Stride's killer was clearly very calculating and very audacious. Does that really sound like an "idiot" or drunken fool such as BS man? As I've noted several times, Stride would surely be extremely unlikely to accept the cachous unless she was reasonably relaxed. But BS man had just assaulted her. Surely she would be more inclined to scream "murder" or at least attempt to flee, particularly when you consider the JtR scare.

But in your scenario, she not only accepts the cachous but calmly walks into a pitch black darkened passageway with the man who has just assaulted her! And don't forget, as Batman argues, we're dealing with a killer who was also forensically aware, at least to the extent of avoiding arterial spray. Moreover, the killer successfully ensured that Stride didn't make a sound, or put up any kind of struggle. This is clearly implied by the fact the that the cahous were intact, still in her hand, and because nobody saw or heard anything. Not even, Mrs D who was sat just feet away in the kitchen with the window open. Not any members from the club, even though Eagle was insistent that they would have heard cries for help. Not anyone from the close by lodgings, even though the occupants, according to the Star, were still awake. Not Fanny Mortimer, who spent most of the time between 12;30 and 1:00 on her doorstep. He must therefore have overpowered her extremely quickly giving her no chance to resist or raise the alarm

Now, ask you, do this really seem like a murder that an "idiot" or drunken fool like BS man-someone who has just assaulted Stride in the street in front of two witnesses-could pull off? And, if the killer's plan was to lure Stride into Dutfield's Yard, them why launch a direct assault in the open, and in front of witnesses?

[lynn cates]

well in hand

Hello John. Thanks.

OK, and presumably she has cachous in hand at this time?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

But some people would discount George Hutchinson's even more detailed testimony. If this is the criteria maybe he was ""there" as well!

I don`t know, John, your scenario puts Hutch to shame.
Are your family from the London area by any chance ;-)

[John G]

I don`t know, John, your scenario puts Hutch to shame.
Are your family from the London area by any chance ;-)

Hi Jon,

I was simply speculating; that is just one of a number of alternative scenarios; Jon presented another. Considering all of the evidence, it seems to be that Hutchinson is a more plausible witness that Schwartz.

[lynn cates]

What mystery?

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"Since you now agree her hand relaxing is the forensic explanation . . ."

Explanation for what? Make sense man!

". . . you can only fall back on your mystery of how people can hold onto something during an assault and still retain it in death."

I have no idea what the devil you are talking about; and, I daresay, neither do you.

"If doesn't matter if you can't comprehend how this is possible if countless examples have been given. See DaneF again. There are plenty of things we don't comprehend but accept because they have examples."

Well, there are plenty of things YOU don't comprehend--as is obvious.

1. Liz COULD NOT have held the cachous IF she were thrown to the ground.

2. When her scarf was seized, she doubtless grasped her cachous tightly.

3. Please tell me what her hand relaxing post-mortem has to do with ANY of this?

The only mystery is in your mind. And that because you cannot follow a simple forensic explanation.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

OK, and presumably she has cachous in hand at this time?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes. If she went to the side door, with the intention of meeting someone, or gaining access to the club, she could have taken out the cachous with the intention of freshening her breath, for example. In any event, at that stage, i.e. as she initially entered the Yard, she would have no reason to sense any danger.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

But Scwartz doesn't mention the cachous, despite his detailed description of events. And I very much doubt, anyway, that she would calmly take out a packet of cachous whilst involved in an argument/altercation with the man, particularly if he was a complete stranger. It's clearly not what any rational person would do. And I think it highly unlikely that she would have been relaxed enough to calmly take out the packet of cachous after being roughly handled, i.e thrown to the ground, by BS man. I mean, at the very least, he'd shown himself to be a thoroughly unpleasant character. And why would she then subsequently agree to go with him into a narrow, unlit, i.e pitch black, passage?

Isn't it more likely she would say to herself, "Oh dear, this is a somewhat brutish individual, and not at all gentlemanly or respectable in his demeanour. You know what, perhaps he's JtR, I'm off!". But, then again, maybe she would be inclined to use slightly more colourful language!

Hi JohnG
I guess I need to express my ideas of what happened a little more fully so you know the whole story.

I think Stride was not actively solicitating that night. She had recently broken up with Kidney so she was out and about, perhaps looking for a new boyfriend/sugardaddy. She was not in desperate straits. She meets who I call peaked cap man-the man who witnesses marshall, Schwartz, perhaps smith see her with over the course of some time. Again, a women meandering about with the same man is not indicative of a woman actively solicitating.

Unfortunately this man is the ripper and he is trying to get her to engage in an act of prostitution so he can get her to a secluded spot. She is hesitant and wont go. Finally after spending considerable time and money on her, perhaps he bought her the flower and/or caschous, he gives up and leaves her only to lose his temper, turn around, go back and attack her. This is where Schwartz sees him, when he is returing to her.

Stride has the caschous in her hand already, Before peaked cap/BS man leaves her. Schwartz dosnt see it in her hand because its already there and its too small for him to notice anyway.

The rest of what happens in my possible scenarios is what I describe in my earlier posts.

[Abby Normal]

This subject of the mints is quite ironic to me. I don't understand why the simple solution of, she was carrying them in her hand, is suppose to be too far out there to be true.

I talked to my cousin last night, who was a Paramedic for over 20 years in a major metro city, just to ask her if she's ever seen people holding onto random objects after they had been killed. She had multiple stories of arriving to murder scenes with people still having a cell phone in their hand. She said one person still had an apple they were eating before being bludgeoned in the back of the head. But the saddest and craziest was a little girl who committed suicide by hanging who still had a bottle of finger nail polish in her hand (the bottle had no significance to anyone).

After hearing these stories I realized having a pack of mints in your hand is actually pretty tame in comparison.

exactly-Ive been saying the same thing for years!

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

If the B.S. man was her killer, then the interruption by Schwartz had no effect on his plans. I could see his wrath and a subsequent message railing against Jews being more likely if Schwartz had thwarted his plans.

c.d.

P.S. No, I don't think the B.S. man killed Liz. I think somebody came along after he had left.

Hi CD
I think that she was found with just a cut throat because he did thwart his plans of post mortem mutilation.

I don't think that a woman who was just attacked by a guy (and a guy who may have attacked her because she WOULD NOT go into the alley with him)would immediately pop into the alley with the next one who came along.

[Batman]

exactly-Ive been saying the same thing for years!

Yes, which is why Lynn's certainty of...
1. Liz COULD NOT have held the cachous IF she were thrown to the ground.
...isn't the impossible, but happens, often enough for the experts who deal with this on a day to day basis to take note of it.

[Abby Normal]

Hello c.d,

Excellent post, and argued much more methodically than my previous post.

Not in my opinion.

Can you imagine a detective coming to the conclusion:

The man who was seen attacking the woman minutes before her dead body was found nearby could not have possibly been her attacker because she was found holding breath mints in her hand.

Its ludicrous.

[Abby Normal]

Sorry but why couldn't she have made a run for the gate and club door that is a few seconds away? Schwartz witnessed a struggle not the murder.

Lastly the body was disturbed by several people at several different times. She was even prodded with a stick and an attempt was made to shift this bag with it. So an object is barely held within her hand... What's the big deal? What's the mystery? The investigation had no problem with it.

Hi Batman

Sorry but why couldn't she have made a run for the gate and club door that is a few seconds away?

That's a great point, and very possible. maybe he then catches her from behind in the alley, grabbing her scarf. Would explain why her scarf is pulled tight.

[John G]

Hi JohnG
I guess I need to express my ideas of what happened a little more fully so you know the whole story.

I think Stride was not actively solicitating that night. She had recently broken up with Kidney so she was out and about, perhaps looking for a new boyfriend/sugardaddy. She was not in desperate straits. She meets who I call peaked cap man-the man who witnesses marshall, Schwartz, perhaps smith see her with over the course of some time. Again, a women meandering about with the same man is not indicative of a woman actively solicitating.

Unfortunately this man is the ripper and he is trying to get her to engage in an act of prostitution so he can get her to a secluded spot. She is hesitant and wont go. Finally after spending considerable time and money on her, perhaps he bought her the flower and/or caschous, he gives up and leaves her only to lose his temper, turn around, go back and attack her. This is where Schwartz sees him, when he is returing to her.

Stride has the caschous in her hand already, Before peaked cap/BS man leaves her. Schwartz dosnt see it in her hand because its already there and its too small for him to notice anyway.

The rest of what happens in my possible scenarios is what I describe in my earlier posts.

Hello Abby,

I would agree that there is some evidence that Stride may not have been soliciting that night. Thus, James Brown, whose evidence conflicts with Schwartz, heard Stride say to a suspect, ""No, not tonight, some other night."

However, if we speculate that Stride had the cachous in her hand prior to the assault Schwartz claimed he witnessed, that runs into major difficulties.
Consider Schwartz's Police statement: "The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway.."

The question therefore is this: how did Stride hold onto the cachous, which were simply held in tissue, between thumb and forefinger, whilst being pulled toward the street, spun around, and thrown onto the footway, without spilling all/most of the contents? Surely that would defy Newton's law of gravity. I mean, imagine you're precariously holding a small bag of popcorn and you were assaulted in such away: how many of the contents do you think would avoid spillage? Stride, would have to have been some sort of juggler!

And, of course, BS man would then still have to get Stride into Dutfield's yard. If he dragged her in surely, again, all of the contents would easily have spilled out. He may have persuaded her to go in voluntarily, but why would she agree to go into a pitch-black cul de sac with a man who had just assaulted her, whilst all the time not making a sound- or at least not one that Mrs D et al. could hear?

[Abby Normal]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I mean, why would she run into a narrow passage cloaked in pitch black darkness? So dark in fact that Lave couldn't even see the side door to get back in. I would have thought that would have been the very last thing she would have done, unless, of course, she was completely crazy.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand. You do realize that the cachous were precariously held between thumb and forefinger, as Lynn succinctly points out, and therefore not gripped tightly? You do realize that the "packet" they were held in was just a flimsy bit of tissue? And yet, you insist that she could have valiantly held on to the cachous, as if they were some precious object, throughout repeated assaults by BS man: being pulled into the street, being spun round, being thrown to the footway. And then. after Scwartz left, possibly being dragged, or at least forced, into Dutfield's Yard and then forced to the ground again. I mean, me thinks she was hardly going to go into a pitch-black dark narrow passage voluntarily with a man who had just assaulted her!

And throughout all of this she avoids spilling the contents from the flimsy bit of tissue. In fact, the only evidence of any contents being spilled was explained by Dr Blackwell as probably being the result if his removal of the packet from her hand.

Time to abandon this hopeless suspect, me thinks.

Hi JohnG

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I mean, why would she run into a narrow passage cloaked in pitch black darkness? So dark in fact that Lave couldn't even see the side door to get back in. I would have thought that would have been the very last thing she would have done, unless, of course, she was completely crazy.

She was running to get away from him, toward the closest source of help-the voices of the men from the club.