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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Ann Nichols

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  #1  
Old 02-09-2016, 01:04 PM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Default What if PC Thain lied?

Hi all,

This has nothing to do with my upcoming lecture, but I was curious. Polly Nichols was murdered along PC Thain's beat. He claimed he did not see her lying on the ground when he walked by at 3:15. Recall, Charles Cross saw her lying on the south side of Buck's Row at 3:40.

With the Nichols murder so similar to the Chapman murder, with the exception of no organs taken, it's hard not to suggest the Ripper was not interrupted when murdering Nichols. ...possibly interrupted by Thain walking his beat at 3:15.

Possible scenarios: Thain may have seen her in the darkness, but thought she was just another drunk or Thain was not where he was supposed to be (He would have gotten into a little hot water not walking his beat). Either way, it would have had incentive not to tell the truth.

I'd love to see your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Mike
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  #2  
Old 02-09-2016, 01:08 PM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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I believe I messed up my double negative, so... "It's hard to suggest Nichols was not interrupted..."
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  #3  
Old 02-09-2016, 01:20 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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It was not Thain, Mike - it was Neil.

There was blood running from the wound in the neck as Mizen arrived at the body, somewhere around 5-7minutes after Lechmere left the body. That would put the sighting of the blood in the vicinity of perhaps 3.52-3.55.

That effectively means that she must have bled for up against 40 minutes (or more) if she was there and cut on Neils 3.15 round.

So itīs a no as far as Iīm concerned.

Last edited by Fisherman : 02-09-2016 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 02-09-2016, 01:51 PM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Hi Fisherman,

I was just going by Casebook's Nichols bio:

"3:15 AM -- PC John Thain, 96J, passes down Buck's Row on his beat. He sees nothing unusual. At approximately the same time Sgt. Kerby passes down Buck's Row and reports the same."

Thanks!

Mike
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Old 02-09-2016, 02:08 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Bucks Row was Neil's beat, Brady Street was Thain's. He passed the end of the row on his beat.

Kirby was the Section Sergeant.

Monty
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  #6  
Old 02-09-2016, 05:58 PM
drstrange169 drstrange169 is offline
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Hello Mike,

You are right, the Casebook bio does indeed make that mistake. If anyone from Admin. is reading this maybe it could be corrected.

Also Fisherman's misinformation about Mizen's blood sighting should be noted as incorrect (see "Whatever happened to Lechmere" thread post 594).

These mistakes crop up every now and then.
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Last edited by drstrange169 : 02-09-2016 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 02-09-2016, 06:59 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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PC Neil's testimony has him approaching the body by passing the Board School, he was heading towards Brady Street. So if the killer heard his approach he must surely have run eastward towards Brady St.

Cross & Paul entered Bucks Row from the Brady St. end.

I'm more inclined to think it was the approach of Cross, coming from Brady St., that interrupted the killer, who then fled westward around the Board School.
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Old 02-09-2016, 07:47 PM
drstrange169 drstrange169 is offline
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Certainly a logical and practical inclination.

One thing I've never understood is PC Neil's claim that he was "walking along the right side of the street" but "walked across" to Mrs Nichols.

Of course, Llolyds wrote "left side" so maybe it was just an error.
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Last edited by drstrange169 : 02-09-2016 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 02-09-2016, 10:46 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drstrange169 View Post
Hello Mike,

You are right, the Casebook bio does indeed make that mistake. If anyone from Admin. is reading this maybe it could be corrected.

Also Fisherman's misinformation about Mizen's blood sighting should be noted as incorrect (see "Whatever happened to Lechmere" thread post 594).

These mistakes crop up every now and then.
There are two versions of when Mizen saw the blood. One is that he did so as he first arrived at the scene. This is supported by The Echo.
The other is that he saw fresh blood floating and partially coagulated blood half an hour or more after Nichols was cut. This is suggested by more than just the one newspaper.

Dusty prefers to go with the statistics here, and therefore he rules out the only version where the bleeding and coagulation is in sync with the events.

I prefer to go with the realities. Itīs an inclination that I try never to strive from, regardless what happens to my theory.

So instead of listening to and taking the advice from Dusty, I recommend - as always - to read all the sources and then ask yourself which are the ones likeliest to be true. Once one does that, a fringe benefit is how one tends not to spend any time on Dustys advice afterwards.

Last edited by Fisherman : 02-09-2016 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 02-09-2016, 10:48 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Cross & Paul entered Bucks Row from the Brady St. end.
That is corroborated in just the one case.

I am just saying that to point to how we must be able to sift truths from claims when we look at this case. There is a tendency to follow in the leish provided by Lechmere. That is either wise - or not. The important thing is to keep in mind that both things may apply.

Last edited by Fisherman : 02-09-2016 at 11:00 PM.
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