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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Ann Nichols

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  #11  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:16 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Daily Telegraph 3rd Sept, Dr Llewellyn's inquest testimony;

"On the left side of the neck, about an inch below the jaw, there was an incision about four inches long and running from a point immediately below the ear. An inch below on the same side, and commencing about an inch in front of it, was a circular incision terminating at a point about three inches below the right jaw. This incision completely severs all the tissues down to the vertebrae. The large vessels of the neck on both sides were severed. The incision is about eight inches long. These cuts must have been caused with a long-bladed knife, moderately sharp, and used with great violence."

Can anyone suggest why there were two cuts to Polly's neck? Were they just random slashes, or was there a purpose behind them? I can only think of one, as follows;
The shorter cut to the left side came first, with the head turned to the left and the knife under the neck. This would mean that any potential arterial spray would be directed away from the killer and onto the pavement. Once the initial bloodflow had subsided, Jack was then free to make the more substantial cuts to throat and abdomen with much less risk of becoming blood-splattered.

Does that make sense? Or are there other explanations for the shorter cut?
Hi,

Were double throat cuts unusual or common in murders with such cuts?

Pierre
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  #12  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:16 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi Steve,

I wonder if you could please help me.

There is a medical phrase from the Chapman inquest: "There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae...".

What does "the body" mean?

How would you describe the wounds on the throat to someone who is not a medical?

Thanks a lot!

Pierre
Hi Pierre

The body is the round bulk of the majority of human vertebrae. It sits in front of the spinal canal (and cord). The spinous process comes out of the back of the vertebra (and can be felt as the sharp bony prominence at the base of the neck. The transverse processes come out at right angles to the spinous process. All of this is then attached to the body by the pedicle on each side. So when the cuts are described as cutting into the vertebrae it is on the front half (and the sides) of that bone.

As to the throat wounds, if you feel down the front of the Adam's Apple (larynx), you'll feel an indent, below which is the cricoid bone. The (presumed) first cut I believe hit the body of the tracheal cartilage (big part of the Adam's Apple), hence a second cut lower to go below the larynx and thus prevent screaming for help. I think the rest of the description is self explanatory as long as you remember an inch is 2.5cm approximately.

Paul
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  #13  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:21 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Hi Pierre

The body is the round bulk of the majority of human vertebrae. It sits in front of the spinal canal (and cord). The spinous process comes out of the back of the vertebra (and can be felt as the sharp bony prominence at the base of the neck. The transverse processes come out at right angles to the spinous process. All of this is then attached to the body by the pedicle on each side. So when the cuts are described as cutting into the vertebrae it is on the front half (and the sides) of that bone.

As to the throat wounds, if you feel down the front of the Adam's Apple (larynx), you'll feel an indent, below which is the cricoid bone. The (presumed) first cut I believe hit the body of the tracheal cartilage (big part of the Adam's Apple), hence a second cut lower to go below the larynx and thus prevent screaming for help. I think the rest of the description is self explanatory as long as you remember an inch is 2.5cm approximately.

Paul
Many thanks Paul!

Pierre
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  #14  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:22 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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[quote=Pierre;421594]
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post



Hi Steve,

I didn´t know that.

Is that well established?

Pierre
Hi Pierre

I had assumed so. However I now need to check on what Jon said above.


I see Paul has given a far better answer to your other question than I could


Steve
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  #15  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:29 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
Hi Pierre

The body is the round bulk of the majority of human vertebrae. It sits in front of the spinal canal (and cord). The spinous process comes out of the back of the vertebra (and can be felt as the sharp bony prominence at the base of the neck. The transverse processes come out at right angles to the spinous process. All of this is then attached to the body by the pedicle on each side. So when the cuts are described as cutting into the vertebrae it is on the front half (and the sides) of that bone.

As to the throat wounds, if you feel down the front of the Adam's Apple (larynx), you'll feel an indent, below which is the cricoid bone. The (presumed) first cut I believe hit the body of the tracheal cartilage (big part of the Adam's Apple), hence a second cut lower to go below the larynx and thus prevent screaming for help. I think the rest of the description is self explanatory as long as you remember an inch is 2.5cm approximately.

Paul
Hi Paul.

Good idea on the Chapman case. Not something I had considered.

Or course such cannot be the case with Nichols, so botched first cut still looks a possibility.

In which case the double cuts while not random as such, may not be a significant link between some victims as some researchers have suggested.

Steve
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  #16  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:48 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post

Eddowes is left as the only single cut. Why?
I think if you read over Dr Brown's observation of the neck wound to Eddowes you might see that he is not describing any cuts, or the number of cuts, but the appearance of the wound(s) in general.

As Jon G, previously noted, in part:
"The throat was cut across to the extent of about 6 or 7 inches A superficial cut commenced about an inch and ˝ below the lobe and about 2 ˝ inches below behind the left ear and extended across the throat to about 3 inches below the lobe of the right ear"

But then Brown said:
"The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side – The large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed – The larynx was severed below the vocal cord All the deep structures were severed to the bone The knife marking intervertebral cartilages

First he described a superficial cut, then he details a deep cut to the spine - two cuts.
Brown is really just describing the appearance of the wound, not suggesting how many cuts there were. but, as a superficial cut does not reach the spine then we can see there must have been more than one application of the knife.
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  #17  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:58 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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I read that description as being the same cut, but only on the left side does it penetrate through the sternocleidomastoid muscle and hence cut the left (probable common) carotid and internal jugular vein before cutting down to the vertebra. After cutting through the larynx the cut is more superficial on the right (although may just have got caught in the muscle and maybe a further sign of interruption).

But this is my opinion
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  #18  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:02 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

Can anyone suggest why there were two cuts to Polly's neck? Were they just random slashes, or was there a purpose behind them?
If you follow the Mylett case, where the victim was thought to have been strangled by use of a cord. Dr. Brownfield offered a reason for the throats being cut in previous cases.
http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881224.html

".....if the other victims had been first strangled would there not be postmortem indications?" - "If he cut the throat along the line of the cord he would obliterate the traces of partial strangulation." "
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  #19  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:25 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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The protruding tongues certainly imply potential strangulation, but not definite. Steve (Elmarna) previously asked whether the decapitation could have hidden the cuts, the couple I've looked at would again be a possibility (although until each ripper/ripper-type cut and each torso decapitation is assessed I'm not willing to go further, sorry).

I do remember a previous discussion about the use of a garrotte which I suggest could potentially occlude the carotid arteries to render the victim unconscious as the first element of the killers attack.

Regards

Paul
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  #20  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:26 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
My belief is that the killer was behind her when her throat was cut. He plunged the knife deep into the throat front and centre, and then drew the knife across.
If you're talking about Eddowes, this seems to go against all the evidence.

Quote:
The angle of the facial wounds is also suggestive of that, and perhaps these injuries occurred when she was struggling to avoid having her throat cut.
Are you suggesting that Jack managed to hold a hand over the mouth of a struggling Kate, slash her cheeks and face, slice her nose off, nick her eyelids and stab her in the mouth multiple times and eventually cut her throat to the bone, all without a) making any noise, b) getting any blood on her dress or the ground, or c) cutting his own fingers off?

Quote:
Dr Biggs has stated that there is not always arterial spray in these circumstances.
This I can agree with. But we know that there was some spray in two cases, at least.
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