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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #1001  
Old 06-30-2017, 03:18 AM
Henry Flower Henry Flower is offline
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Quote:
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Science will always win.

Pierre
Local Authority building regulations will always win, Pierre.
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  #1002  
Old 06-30-2017, 03:23 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by Henry Flower View Post
Local Authority building regulations will always win, Pierre.
Dear Henry,

This is not Rome after all.

What is the point of trying to convince people when the evidence is not valid and reliable?

As you can see, there is hope.

Pierre
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  #1003  
Old 06-30-2017, 03:32 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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[quote=Fisherman;419880]

Quote:
So if we have a sequence where the killer subdued Nichols by strangling her partially,
What data do you have for this, Fisherman?
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  #1004  
Old 06-30-2017, 04:02 AM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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Given that Nichols had had her neck severed down to the bone and her abdomen cut very severely, so severely as to make Llewellyn say that it was enough to kill immediately - can we reason that Nichols would possibly have gone on breating for a couple of minutes? Or even a minute? Are there any examples of people with this kind of extensive damage doing that? Would not the cut off air supply to the brain ensure that we are looking at a very short period of breathing indeed?

If people with this kind of damage CAN breathe for a couple of minutes or so - is that something that is mostly an offhand possibility or is it more like a general rule that they do? Can something - anything - be said about the general possibilities that there will be this kind of breathing with these kinds of victims?

What I am asking is whether you can offer any idea of your own about how long you personally would think it likely that Nichols would have breathed. Even if you are prepared to allow for a couple of minutes, would you think it the more likely thing? If you find that a question you rather not would answer, I am fine with that.

Please note that I am not expressing an opposite view here - I am genuinely interested in finding out as much as I can, thatīs all.

Hi Fisherman

In traumatic death, death results in a predictable order. Airway obstruction kills first, then problems with breathing such as massive haemothorax, then circulation e.g. haemorrhage, cardiac tamponade, then cerebral issues (which would often cause an airway obstruction first). Although the neck laceration involved the airway, it would ironically likely act to keep the airway open. There is nothing to suggest a significant thoracic injury in any of the cases with the exception of MJK so the heart-lung circulation is maintained and blood is oxygenated. As the circulating volume drops, the effective circulation becomes restricted to heart-lung-brain due to physiological vasoconstriction, so as long as the heart has sufficient oxygenated blood to keep pumping then the lungs would too. The severance of both carotid arteries would result in loss of most of the cerebral circulation and hence unconsciousness, but the hind brain which contains the respiratory centres has a separate circulation through the vertebral arteries which we have no evidence could have been cut (note the notching of the vertebral body). Thus she would likely have continued to breathe until cardiac arrest occurred - more likely due to the lack of blood than lack of oxygen within the blood. As per my previous calculations this would be in the region of a few minutes from the first cut rather than the implication of immediate.

Hope answers your questions

Paul
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  #1005  
Old 06-30-2017, 04:23 AM
Henry Flower Henry Flower is offline
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Thank you Paul, that's very helpful indeed.

I have one further question. If she were rendered unconscious by compression of the neck, a "blood choke", would this, as I have often heard stated, have an effect on the violence of any arterial spray from her subsequently cut throat? I might be wrong but I can't see why it would.

Also, if her throat has been opened, and she is "breathing" through a cut that is also flowing or spurting with blood, would this not produce rather a noisy spectacle, even if she were unconscious at the time?

I may stop there. I feel slightly queasy. Thanks again.
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  #1006  
Old 06-30-2017, 04:37 AM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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Hi Henry

Compression over the carotid sinus can cause a vagal response which would drop the heart rate and blood pressure (think about fainting soldiers on parade with tight collars). In this case, during the immediate recovery period, the opening pressure would potentially be lower and a swift opening might well reduce the arterial spray.

I'm not convinced the airway would have that much blood around it from where the cuts were made. The only bleeding at the front of the neck would be from skin and fat blood vessels and the massive bleeding from the carotid arteries would be draining away from the severed trachea. The lack of blood on the victims front is why the doctors felt the cuts were whilst lying down.

Paul
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  #1007  
Old 06-30-2017, 04:41 AM
Henry Flower Henry Flower is offline
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
Hi Henry

Compression over the carotid sinus can cause a vagal response which would drop the heart rate and blood pressure (think about fainting soldiers on parade with tight collars). In this case, during the immediate recovery period, the opening pressure would potentially be lower and a swift opening might well reduce the arterial spray.

I'm not convinced the airway would have that much blood around it from where the cuts were made. The only bleeding at the front of the neck would be from skin and fat blood vessels and the massive bleeding from the carotid arteries would be draining away from the severed trachea. The lack of blood on the victims front is why the doctors felt the cuts were whilst lying down.

Paul
Thank you Paul, indebted to you. That clears a lot up for me.
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  #1008  
Old 06-30-2017, 04:45 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
Hi Henry

Compression over the carotid sinus can cause a vagal response which would drop the heart rate and blood pressure (think about fainting soldiers on parade with tight collars). In this case, during the immediate recovery period, the opening pressure would potentially be lower and a swift opening might well reduce the arterial spray.

I'm not convinced the airway would have that much blood around it from where the cuts were made. The only bleeding at the front of the neck would be from skin and fat blood vessels and the massive bleeding from the carotid arteries would be draining away from the severed trachea. The lack of blood on the victims front is why the doctors felt the cuts were whilst lying down.

Paul
Just again Paul very many thanks.



Steve
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  #1009  
Old 06-30-2017, 05:41 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Agree with you on what Paul probably felt, and that even if earlier he may not have detected much.

Of course we will not agree on the order of the cuts, but such is the nature of things.

An interesting observation Fish, and not meant to start more debate. If the Neck was first then the cuts to the abdomen would bleed less and the chance of getting blood on the hands or anywhere would be reduced. But who knows; certainly not either of us.


Steve
Well, one of us (not telling who, though) is pretty convinced the neck didnīt come first.
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  #1010  
Old 06-30-2017, 05:47 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Well, one of us (not telling who, though) is pretty convinced the neck didnīt come first.
You may be convinced; and you may be right.

However there is no way of proving which was first from the evidence. We either believe Llewellyn(you) or we don't(me).


Steve
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