Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Jon Guy 14 minutes ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Harry D 32 minutes ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Jon Guy 44 minutes ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Harry D 1 hour and 3 minutes ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by Alfie 1 hour and 8 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - by Harry D 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - (20 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (14 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - (7 posts)
Doctors and Coroners: Eddowes' gut cut - (5 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (3 posts)
General Discussion: The Weapon - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-10-2012, 03:04 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,120
Default Kellys in the Scots Guards

Copied over from another thread:

I just found an old post in the archives by Neal Shelden that gives the names and soldier numbers of all men with the surname Kelly or McCarthy in 2nd Battalion Scots Guards from Muster Rolls 1885-mid 1888.
I just realised that I can use the numbers Neal recorded from these records to check their pension records with fuller details.
It might draw a blank but worth it for ruling out too I think?....if it works!

Thanks very much Neal!
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-10-2012, 03:08 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,120
Default

Here is Neal's original post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Shelden January 14, 2004
Last year, in searching for Mary Jane Kellys brother in the 2nd Brigade Scots Guards musters records at the PRO, I made this account of all the names and numbers of Kellys and McCarthys and variants. I have also added some notes.

2nd Brigade Scots Guards musters records - from 1885- to mid 1888.

6192 James Kelly (discharged)
6935 James Kelly (joined at 30)
7734 James Kelly
5857 James Kelly
5352 William Kelly (on 1881 census shown as age 27, born Westmeath, IRE)
5786 Patrick Kelly (joined reserve)
7607 Patrick Kelly (deserted)
6374 Michael Kelly (on 1881 census shown as age 21, born Stirling, Scotland)
7623 Robert Kelly (join reserve)
7754 Patrick OKelly (joined reserve)
6330 Michael Keily or Kiely (at school , discharged, later to Lance Corporal?)
5786 P.Keilly (in prison)
Earlier P.Kelly?
And M.Kelly (to Dublin Fusiliers)?
4735 Michael Kelly (from C? Corps to army reserve)
4751 I failed to write down the name but it would not have been Henry, John, or Johnto? (to army reserve)
6269 Thomas Kelly (relegated from 40th Green, discharged)
7421 John Robert Killey (b.May 1867?)
John Robert Killey discharge certificate said: Born at Ramsey, Isle of Man. Joined 19yrs 9mnths, occupation: sailor, 5ft 8 ins, chest 34 ins, fresh complexion, brown hair, grey eyes, recruited at Liverpool on 15th Feb 1887, Royal Artillery gave him notice. Father John, mother Mary, younger brother Thomas. Living: College Street, Ramsey, Isle of Man. Service record: 17th Feb 1887-14th Feb 1899=12 years.
Continued musters record:
6347 Charles McCarthy (to army reserve)
5770 Thomas McCarthy (to army reserve)
6552 William McCartney?
Also a Henry McCaskie?

As we can see from the list there was no Henry, John or Johnto Kellys, or variants, or McCarthys, in the muster records for the 2nd Brigade Scots Guards. Maybe Kellys brother joined up after mid-1888, but I think it unlikely?
Therefore, discharge certificates would have to be searched for most of the men above, but I fear that there is little chance that he was one of the above even if we believe her story?
It may well be that we have to concede that his surname was another name, and that we should look in the records for a different surname with the first names of Henry, John, or Johnto. This would also account for the man only being a lover of Mary Jane Kelly, rather than her brother.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-10-2012, 03:14 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,120
Default

Here are my first couple of results [selected details from more extensive records and shown in red] from cross referencing the soldier numbers with the Chelsea pension records:

6192 James Kelly (discharged)
Number attached to John Wells discharged from Scots guards in 1876-will re-check later

6935 James Kelly (joined at 30)
:James KELLY Year of birth:1864
Place of birth:St Leonard, Bridgnorth, Shropshire
Previous service in Cheshire Regiment
joined Scots Guards 28th Sept. 1885 at Shrewsbury aged 21 years 2 months, a farm labourer.
discharged from army in 1892 (including reserves)
Next of kin-mother- Ann Kelly -address-84 Cartway Bridgenorth Shropshire.


7734 James Kelly
unable to trace by number-will come back to him

5857 James Kelly
This number is linked to William Kelly b 1864 Kildare, Kildare Wicklow
Attestation date 5 Oct 1883 Scots Guards
age at attestation 19 years 4 months
occupation-weaver
Previously served in 3rd East Lancashire Regiment
Roman Catholic
discharged 30th Sept. 1895-12 years service (including reserves)
next of kin William Kelly 10 Plymouth street Blackburn Lancashire


5786 Patrick Kelly (joined reserve)

Patrick Kelly b 1860 in Jonesborough Newry Armagh
age at attestation 23
attestation date 17 Aug 1883 Scots Guards
previous service in Royal irish Rifles
deserted in 1886 rejoined regiment in 1887
discharged March 1889
next of kin brother James [cross after this name and John older written in] living in Jonesborough Armagh
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-10-2012, 03:29 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,841
Default Kelley

Hello Debs. A very good idea.

How many variants are considered? Were there any Kelleys?

Cheers.
LC
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-10-2012, 03:34 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,841
Default all of them

Hello (again) Debs. It occurs to me that, given a fairly manageable finite number of 2nd battalion Scots guards, I wonder if those of us who have ancestry could do a search of each one and find connections?

Do you have an approximate figure?

Cheers.
LC
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:04 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn cates View Post
Hello Debs. A very good idea.

How many variants are considered? Were there any Kelleys?

Cheers.
LC
Hi Lynn,
Thanks, I'm just going by Neal's original list for now; men attested 1885-mid 1888 shown on the muster roll.
Neal's list does include some variants of the name as you can see, so I am sure he thought to look for names such as Kelley etc. as well.

The pension records are on Find my past if anyone else want to help research this. My sub runs out next month again so I'm trying to look at as many as I can now.
There were approx. 3,000 men attested to the Scots Guards (all battalions) between 1868 and 1888.

It would be worth stretching to Kellys attested before 1885 as well at some point, but not later than 88 of course.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:12 PM
Premium Member
Chris Scott Chris Scott is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ramsgate, Kent
Posts: 1,853
Default

Many thanks for this Debs
Your research work is much appreciated and explores avenues that may well yield results
Chris
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:21 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,841
Default dates

Hello Debs. Thanks. 3000 are a bit much.

Yes, I agree that one could go back a tad before 1885. He may have been there longer.

Cheers.
LC
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:37 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,120
Default Next lot

7607 Patrick Kelly (deserted)

This number is linked to Michael Kelly b 1868 in Tralee Tralee, Creiry [Kerry?]
attested at London 8 July 1887 aged 19 years 10 months
occupation groom
deserted 1887 rejoined 1891 discharged 1893?
educated at Christian Brothers School
next of kin Susan [no surname] mother 55 High St Tralee Kerry


6374 Michael Kelly (on 1881 census shown as age 21, born Stirling, Scotland)

Michael Kelly b 1865 Maycullen Galway, Galway
attested 26th May 1884 age 19 years 4 months at Hamilton [Lanarkshire]
discharged 1896
next of kin father Bryan[?] Kelly 71 Str??field Blantyre [Lanarkshire]


7623 Robert Kelly (join reserve)

Robert Kelly b 1864 in troon Ayrshire
attested 18 July 1887 aged 23 years 3 months at London
occupation tailor
imprisoned frequently between 88 and 89
next of kin John Kelly, father and Marian Rodgers, mother-12 University ?? Glasgow


7754 Patrick OKelly (joined reserve)

Patrick O'Kelly b 1868 Cork, Cork
attested 2 Sept. 1887 aged 19 years 4 months at London
occupation labourer
discharged in 1899 and rejoined colours 1900 to 1903
next of kin Timothy Kelly father of Cork
wife [of Patrick] Julia, 57 Heath Rd Lambeth
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:39 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Scott View Post
Many thanks for this Debs
Your research work is much appreciated and explores avenues that may well yield results
Chris
Thanks Chris.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.