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Old 08-31-2008, 08:12 PM
Posts: n/a
Default Israel Schwartz - Can/Should we trust him?

Hello all,

There are a ton of threads about this man, and I dont mean to repeat any discussions, so please let me know if this is.

For me personally, a fair bit of faith is extended to the statements that are attributed to Israel Schwartz via an interpreter....(perhaps Wess of the Arbeter Fraint)...and it is by using his account primarily that I am unconvinced thus far that there is a credible case for this to be a Ripper murder at all.

Does he deserve that kind of faith? Is he extended that kind of faith by Investigators?

The Times, Oct 1st

"Their first attention was directed to the inmates of a Socialist International Club, close to the place at which the body had been found, but there was nothing to give ground for a reasonable suspicion about any of them; nor was there any one in the neighbourhood of the locality on whom the guilt could be presumed to rest."

The police had either not released, or not believed Swartz'z account the previous night it would the line.."nor was there anyone in the neighbourhood"....

As was this article...

"The following description has been circulated by the police of a man said to have been seen with the deceased during Saturday evening: -'' Age 28. Slight. Height 5ft. 8in. Complexion dark. No whiskers. Black diagonal coat. Hard felt hat. Collar and tie. Carried newspaper parcel. Respectable appearance.''"

That of course is not Broadshouldered Man, but the man that PC William Smith saw at 12:30am.

From The London Evening News, Oct 1st....

" A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time."

Not only is there no Policeman mentioned in Schwartz'z account, though where he claimed to be was well within sight of that spot at that time, there are no indications that Mrs Mortimer saw anyone outside the gates... at approximately the same time. And if Fanny heard a policeman, why dont we have a statement from one that passed through at around 12:45am?

Now the Star of course is on Schwartz's trail....supposedly...

""Information which may be important was given to the Leman-street police late yesterday afternoon by an Hungarian concerning this murder. This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line. He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter. He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane. The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police. It is, in fact, to the effect that he saw the whole thing.

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings. He described the man with the woman as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat. The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seem to belong to the same grade of society. The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

The whole thing? It would also seem that The Star believed that either Pipeman, or Broadshouldered Man, had been found already...before this was printed Monday afternoon, after Schwartz told them who to look for Sunday night. Is that credible? Does that mean that the two men were easier to find because of their affiliation with the club perhaps? And why, if the Police were told the second man brandishes a knife, would they still release the suspect description of PC Smiths at 12:30am? Why would this story take a back seat to a man seen with Liz 15 minutes earlier?

There is also this interesting bit....

""The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it. The police have also received information that about half past ten on Saturday night, a man, aged about 35 years, entered a public-house in Batty-street, Whitechapel, and whilst the customers in the house were in conversation about the Whitechapel murders he stated that he knew the Whitechapel murderer, and that they would hear about him in the morning. After which he left.""

It seems to me that this account does bear similarity to the man seen throwing Liz down, as per Schwartz, and with the mysterious comments he should be considered as a viable suspect. Yet....the man they sought was still PC Smiths suspect officially.

Here are my questions:

-Is Schwartz's story for being at that location credible?
-Is Schwartz account of either of the two men as printed in the Star anything like the suspects' description released?
-Could Pipeman or Broadshouldered Man be located between Sunday night and Monday afternoon with only a description furnished by Schwartz....and if one had not yet "been wholly believed" yet, why is a man seen 15 minutes earlier, not brandishing a knife, a more plausible suspect to Police?
-Why is Schwartz not asked to testify at the Inquest?

Lastly, is it plausible to consider that Schwartz was actually leaving the club, not checking on his wife moving their belongings at 12:45am, and he is affiliated with the Club?

Any input is welcomed, thanks.

Best regards all.

Last edited by perrymason : 08-31-2008 at 08:17 PM.
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