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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #461  
Old 03-06-2018, 06:26 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Hello CD,

While you are correct in your assessment that the Goulston St graffito is open to interpretation, we need to apply a little critical thinking here.

1. Would a local Jewish immigrant write in cockney double-negative?
2. Racial tensions were high at the time, and it's much likelier the graffito was anti-semitic rather than pro-semitic
3. The police were already suspicious of der Juden, and had tried to collar one Jew for the murders (Pizer). There wasn't any need for the killer (if he was a Gentile) to deflect the blame.
4. The antisemitic sentiment of the GSG is one that has been prevalent throughout history, i.e. that the Jews never take responsibility for their crimes.
good post harry

Quote:
There wasn't any need for the killer (if he was a Gentile) to deflect the blame.
not sure what you mean by this though. IMHO that's at least part of what the ripper was doing by writing the GSG.
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  #462  
Old 03-06-2018, 06:29 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Hello Harry

Whilst I agree with most of what you say, I'd just point out that double negatives aren't exclusively Cockney, nor peculiar to the English language for that matter.
hi Sam
I'm pretty sure it was probably predominantly cockney.

and in the context of the events of that evening-right in line with a non jewish writer. ie-"lipsky!"
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #463  
Old 03-06-2018, 06:46 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
not sure what you mean by this though. IMHO that's at least part of what the ripper was doing by writing the GSG.
Hello Abby,

My point is that the killer didn't need to deflect blame onto the Jews because the police already suspected he was one of them.
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  #464  
Old 03-06-2018, 06:48 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Hello Abby,

My point is that the killer didn't need to deflect blame onto the Jews because the police already suspected he was one of them.
gotcha-thanks
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #465  
Old 03-06-2018, 07:29 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
hi Sam
I'm pretty sure it was probably predominantly cockney.
Double-negatives are, and have probably long been, commonly used by English speakers throughout Britain; often, but not always, in the everyday speech of the working classes. They are also found in other languages like French, Polish and Russian (amongst others), so it's not inconceivable that a non-native English speaker could inadvertently create a double-negative by "translating" what's in their heads.
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  #466  
Old 03-06-2018, 08:39 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Double-negatives are, and have probably long been, commonly used by English speakers throughout Britain; often, but not always, in the everyday speech of the working classes. They are also found in other languages like French, Polish and Russian (amongst others), so it's not inconceivable that a non-native English speaker could inadvertently create a double-negative by "translating" what's in their heads.
of course.

I read an expert on Victorian language said the phrase most likely should be read as-the jews wont take the blame for anything. and also that it was most likely written by a cockney. I don't think he said anything about weather it was jewish or gentile though.

so if that is the most likely reading, and sounds like it is-why would a jew write such a disparaging remark against his own people. sounds rather odd, no?
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #467  
Old 03-06-2018, 08:51 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
I read an expert on Victorian language said the phrase most likely should be read as-the jews wont take the blame for anything. and also that it was most likely written by a cockney. I don't think he said anything about weather it was jewish or gentile though.
Hello Abby,

To me, it seems that this is exactly what the author was getting at. It's also the reason why I doubt its authenticity. If you look at most serial killers who communicate with the outside world, they all provide some kind of reference to the murders and the psychology behind them. The GSG author didn't - he made an oblique jab at the Jews. Therefore, the apron placement serves no purpose insofar as authentication.
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  #468  
Old 03-06-2018, 11:41 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Hello Abby,

To me, it seems that this is exactly what the author was getting at. It's also the reason why I doubt its authenticity. If you look at most serial killers who communicate with the outside world, they all provide some kind of reference to the murders and the psychology behind them. The GSG author didn't - he made an oblique jab at the Jews. Therefore, the apron placement serves no purpose insofar as authentication.
Hi Harry

To me the killer is signing the graffiti with the bloody apron piece.
Look, anyone can break down any event into its many small componants, then analize each component and say by itself it means nothing. I tend to look at the big picture-look at everything together.

I look at everything the night of the double event and see a pattern-the pieces fit together like a puzzle:

the witnesses were all jewish, one who had a heavy jewish appearance.
they all describe a man with a peaked cap (therefore Schwartz, marshall, lawende and co, maybe smith all saw the same man- the ripper).
Schwartz, apparently the one that looked the most jewish, pissed off the ripper enough that he shouted a jewish slur at him.
Diemshitz may have interrupted further.
Lawende and company also saw him and were making disparaging remarks, maybe he heard them.
again, all jewish witnesses.

There was already an anti jewish feeling in the city.
Leather apron, who the ripper was called before the ripper, was jewish.
the main suspect for leather apron, the biggest suspect up to that point, John Pizer was jewish.

theres a gap of time in between when eddowes was murdered and the graffiti was discovered that fits with the ripper heading to his bolt hole to grab some chalk.

the building the graffiti was on was predominantly jewish.

The graffiti is found written above clear evidence(the bloody apron) the killer was there.

The most likely interpretation of the graffiti is anti jewish.

the graffiti was recent-the mostly jewish residents would have wiped it off the instant it was seen.

No resident ever said they saw it previously, nor is ther any reports of ANY graffiti in the area.

The police at the time thought it was written by the killer.

put it all together. I'm 90 percent certain it was written by the killer.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #469  
Old 03-06-2018, 04:37 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Hello Harry and Abby,

As you say, the message is open to interpretation which is my point exactly. So no matter how many arguments you can amass (and yes, you listed good ones) to show that it was most likely anti-semitic that is still a guess. Only one person knows with absolute certainty and that individual is its author.

Now while it can be argued as to how much danger the killer put himself in by taking the time to stop and write the message, there had to be some degree of risk however slight. I don't see the events of that night justifying the rage against Jews that led to him taking that risk. They simply appear to be people basically minding their own business who somehow got in the killer's way and they just happened to be Jewish. But was their being Jewish the cause of getting in his way? I just don't see that. Now he could have had strong anti-semitic feelings prior to that evening and this just threw more fuel on the fire. But then why such an ambiguous, wishy washy message if he was willing to take the risk to write it? Why not something along the lines of all Jews are scum and deserve to be in hell? The whole anti-Jewish argument seems like a stretch to me.

c.d.
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  #470  
Old 03-06-2018, 04:56 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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And you have to wonder why some apparently misplaced anger against some Jews who really did nothing "Jewish" would somehow take precedence over the fact that he apparently killed two women on the same night. Why not brag about that or at least make some sort of passing reference to it? Or better yet, why not incorporate both themes? "Next time it will be three women and even a 1,000 dirty Jews won't be able to stop me." The message simply doesn't make a lot of sense in light of the circumstances.

c.d.
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