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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Shades of Whitechapel

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  #1  
Old 02-18-2008, 01:33 AM
Dan Norder Dan Norder is offline
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Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 852
Default Kitty Ronan's room (recovered thread)

This is G o o g l e's cache of http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-5410.html as retrieved on Feb 8, 2008 04:00:08 GMT.
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.

Kitty's room

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Nemo
15th January 2008, 09:25 PM
Hi All

Could I just clarify where everyone thinks Kitty Ronan's room was please?
In referring to these quotes from the press...

"The victim had been living, it is said, with a man who knew her as Kitty Ronan, at 12 Miller's Court."

"The room of the tragedy was the top apartment of a two roomed house. There was about half a dozen white walled houses in the court and the opposite houses are only a few feet apart. Two doors away on the right hand side near the entrance, is the house in which one of the last "Jack the Ripper" murders was committed."

..and from a dissertation on this site...

"In 1888, Miller's Court had four units on the left, (the last not being used as accommodation) and three on the right. Numbering started with no. 1, downstairs on the left, with no. 2 above it, running down the left side and back up on the right such that no. 12 was upstairs, nearest to Mary Jane's window."

- I cannot see how these indications can be interpreted to mean that Kitty's room was alternatively "No.20 Millers Court" - "Prater's room "- "...directly above Kelly's room" etc

To me it seems that Kitty's room was upstairs in the house at the other side of the pump outside Kelly's windows

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cats meat man
15th January 2008, 10:07 PM
Hi Nemo,
Do you mean the house that also had the brick lined dustbin right outside?
I have often wondered if this was ever searched for clues after the murder of Mary Kelly and possibly Kitty Ronan if it was still there then as well.
All the best
Rob

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Nemo
15th January 2008, 10:30 PM
Hi Cats Meat Man

Yes I think that is the house

It's just that in Andy Aliffes dissertation (Kit Kitty Kitten) it says...

"The victim had been living, it is said, with a man who knew her as Kitty Ronan, at 12 Miller's Court".
They had actually been living in the room formerly occupied by Elizabeth Prater."

Also, in some of the threads discussing the Kitty Ronan case it is stated that she lived in 26 Dorset St / Prater's old room etc but I cannot see why this is.
-----------------
I take it you mean - were the dustbins searched after Kelly's murder?

Interesting if they were not - but surely the police did undertake a comprehensive search of the whole court? - I cannot see them passing over the dustbin(s) really - unless everyone thought they had already been searched when in fact no-one had took it upon themselves to do so...

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cats meat man
15th January 2008, 10:46 PM
Hi Nemo,
Friday wasn't bins collection day for Millers Court,was it?
Elizabeth Prater has been mentioned again.This could develop into a long thread Elizabeth Prater=lengthy debater!Always interesting though.
All the best
Rob

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Glenn L Andersson
16th January 2008, 12:18 AM
The crime scene in connection with the murder of Kitty Ronan has on severval occasions been referred to as Elizabeth Prater's old room, where she lived at the time of the Kelly murder. Thus, it should be the room we know as nr 20, above Kelly's. At the time of Kitty's murder - 1909 - a man called Callaghan was apparently living in Kelly's old room.

It shall be noted that Prater apparently moved across the court shortly after the Kelly murder. In 1892 - according to the Canadian journalist Kathleen Blake Watkins - Prater had already moved, so it is true that Prater was most likely living across the court from Kelly's room in 1909. However, the room where Kitty'smurder took place seem to be referred to that as the one above Kelly's and the one where Prater lived at the time of the Kelly murder.

The general idea has been the the numbering on the houses in Miller's Court were changed some years after the Kelly murder (and Prater's room from 20 to 12). I remember there were lengthy discussions about this here on the Boards, although I don't remember what the conclusions was. I seem to recall that several people agreed on that nr 12 didn't fit the house opposite Kelly's.

But it is confusing, no doubt. Seems like nothing connected with the Ripper case is supposed to be easy or straightforward.

Maybe someone can clarify this or update the general consencus on this matter, so we can establish the most likely and correct interpretation (before my book goes to print )?
Sam (Gareth)? Anyone? Did the room numbers change or not?

All the best

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Nemo
16th January 2008, 01:07 AM
Hi Glenn

(I wish you good fortune with your future book)

Whether the numbers changed or not - Prater's room as we "know" it cannot be described as

"...the top apartment of a two roomed house."

Also, the statement that..

...the opposite houses are only a few feet apart. "

..implies to me that Kitty's room was the original No.12 in the house adjacent to the pump - not in 26 Dorset St.

Only this room fits the facts ("facts" as published in the press report(s))

It would be 2 doors (distant) from Kelly's room...
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2008, 01:34 AM
Dan Norder Dan Norder is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Default

Glenn L Andersson
16th January 2008, 01:38 AM
Hi Nemo,

Indeed, it looks like it, from those quotes.
However, it would have been important to establish when Prater - in such case - moved from that room, because we know she lived there as late as 1892 (when she is reported to have moved there from her old one above Kelly's). If Kitty was murdered in that room, Prater could - by using common sense - not have been a resident there anymore at that time.
So, we know that Prater moved across the court to that room. If she didn't live there any longer in 1909, this indeed opens up the possibilities for this being the crime scene of the Ronan murder.
It would have been interesting to read the police investigation and the witness statements. Like in the Kelly murder, McCarthy was one of the first to discover the crime, so his statement would be of importance since it hopefully would include a clearer picture of the location.

All the best

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Glenn L Andersson
16th January 2008, 02:03 AM
I found a very interesting discussion from 2006 here on the boards on the subject:

Sam Flynn says for example:
Diana,

Yes there was in July 1909, the murdered woman being one Kitty Ronan - you'll find some press cuttings in the "Press Reports" section of Casebook. It's unlikely that Kitty Ronan occupied the same room as Kelly once had, since Ronan's body was discovered in an upstairs room - possibly Elizabeth Prater's. Mrs Prater herself was still living at Miller's Court, albeit in a different room in 1909. It transpires that a man then occupied at Number 13, although it's possible that the rooms had been re-numbered since Kelly's death.

George Hutchinson:
I had always understood it that Kitty Ronan DEFINITELY died in the old Room 20 (ie Prater's old room) - and I think I'm right in saying that Room 20 is NOT 20 Millers Court, but Room 20 of 26 Hanbury Street [sic. typo - should be Duval Street or Dorset Street] since I don't believe there was any access to it from the Court. Willing to stand corrected if someone else knows for sure.

Robert Clack:
When Kate Marshall murder her sister in Elizabeth Prater's old room in Millers Court in November 1898 it was just 26 Dorset Street. Entrance was gained from the first door on the right as you entered Millers Court. The stairs were on the other side of the partition from Mary Kellys room.
When Kate Ronan was murdered in July 1909 the room was known as 12 Millers Court.

So - despite a thorough search on this website - I have failed to find anything really conslusive, only speculations. Although it seems like there is no real consencus based on true evidence, people seem to have assumed that the room was the one above Kelly's. But maybe further research has been undertaken since then?

I, for one, am going to go over the presss reports on the Kitty Ronan murders and see what comes up. Hopefully they inlcude some witness statements or info which further clarifies the matter.

All the best

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Sam Flynn
16th January 2008, 02:03 AM
"...the top apartment of a two roomed house."

Also, the statement that..

...the opposite houses are only a few feet apart. "

..implies to me that Kitty's room was the original No.12 in the house adjacent to the pump
Hi Nemo,

That may have been the case, as the layout I suggested in this post would indicate: http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...&postcount=179

...mind you, that's only based on an assumption that the houses in the Court were numbered sequentially with the odd numbers (1, 3, 5... 13) on the ground floor.

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Glenn L Andersson
16th January 2008, 02:19 AM
Well, the press reports didn't really reveal much - at least not in the Times and Echo, so I am stuck on this one.
One press report even mentions someone else living above Kitty! (must be a newspaper error, though).

All the best

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Nemo
16th January 2008, 03:57 PM
Friday wasn't bins collection day for Millers Court,was it?
Rob

This is from a previous post by Richardn...

"According to The East and West ham Gazette. 10th November 88, several scavengers who were in the court at 9am declared that the body was not there then.
According to the New collins Dictionary A scavenger is a street cleaner, therefore several streetcleaners were in the court around 9am that morning but did not see a body infact were adamant that no body was there."

The press quote is as follows...

"At half-past 10 yesterday morning the dead body of a woman, with her head almost severed from her body, was found in an untenanted outhouse or shed in Dorset-court, Dorset-street, Commercial-street, Spitalfields. It had evidently been there for some hours, but several scavengers who were in the court at nine o'clock declare that the body was not there then. They might, however, have been mistaken, as the place is very dark."

- Not too far fetched an idea then Cats meat man

Would it be part of a scavenger cum street cleaner's job to have emptied the bins in 1888?

Many discarded items were recycled in Victorian times and a communal bin would have been a lucrative place to check for a number of people

(I hope they didn't recycle any meat they found in there... )

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cats meat man
16th January 2008, 09:26 PM
Many thanks,Nemo,
Very interesting.You've bin thinking about this and made an intriguing discovery.It's amazing what you can find if you are prepared to dig deep and root about a bit
Could be a whole new thread this:
Suggested title-The Dustbin in Millers Court.Did it belong to Elizabeth Prater?
All the best
Rob
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