Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Torso Killings: torso maps - by FrankO 2 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Sergeant Thick's Sketchy Connections? - by MrBarnett 8 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Sergeant Thick's Sketchy Connections? - by MrBarnett 17 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Sergeant Thick's Sketchy Connections? - by MrBarnett 2 hours ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Sergeant Thick's Sketchy Connections? - by Sam Flynn 2 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature? - by Sam Flynn 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: Lechmere was Jack the Ripper - (40 posts)
Torso Killings: torso maps - (13 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (11 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature? - (10 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Sergeant Thick's Sketchy Connections? - (6 posts)
Rippercast: Colin Wilson: Jack the Ripper Conference in Ipswich, 1996 - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 11-24-2015, 11:47 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Kilttown, Scotland
Posts: 818
Default

PIERRE.

GAROTT. The ecchymosis on her neck is an indication of strangulation with a ligature (red handkerchief?). That type of briising would not have shown up after her death. The fact that the cut was made across the ecchy-bruising supports another poster's (wickerman?) assertion that the killer cut across the ligature furrow. I believe she was garotted which fits Jack the Rippers MO.

FISH AND CHIPS. I dont know how much this would have cost. I know much wasmade of MAry's desperate situation, mentioned that she wouldnt have gone out if she wasnt starving. Fish and potatoes have a digestion time of one hour. So partially digested f&p means she ate within an bour of her death. McCqrhtys chandler shop, maybe?

POSSIBILITIES. I want to move away from possibilities and towards probabilities. However i cant deny that they 'pop up'. Ive considered the following alternatives: 1) somebody walked in and found the body, and left without reporting it ("oh murder!")., or 2) this was part of the killers MO. It was a way of alerting attention to the murder or timestamping it, like the Tabram murder. There is some mention that the killer may have had a different sounding voice. So... this could have been said by the killer as he was leaving.
__________________
there,s nothing new, only the unexplored
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-24-2015, 12:11 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,264
Default

I have always had the opinion that the cry heard was Kelly crying out ''Oh Murder'', not because of being actually attacked, but awakening suddenly from a nightmare.
Mrs Prater remarked at the inquest,,''Like awakening from a nightmare'', when asked to describe the cry she heard..
And Lottie around 3 years after, told Kit Watkins a Canadian reporter,that the Kelly woman had told her, that sometime in October she had a nightmare that someone was murdering her.
As the cry ''Oh murder '' was uttered,,the wording could suggest, that she had a recurrence of that dream...
I do not believe Mary was killed until daylight.
Regards Richard.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-24-2015, 01:02 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,246
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
FISH AND CHIPS.... McCarthy's chandler shop, maybe?
Not sure McCarthy sold fish and chips, but there was certainly a shop in nearby Thrawl Street which sold fish and chips until at least 2AM. We know this from the testimony of Mrs Elizabeth Mahoney at the Tabram inquest.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-24-2015, 01:07 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
PIERRE.

POSSIBILITIES. I want to move away from possibilities and towards probabilities. However i cant deny that they 'pop up'. Ive considered the following alternatives:

1) somebody walked in and found the body, and left without reporting it ("oh murder!")., or

2) this was part of the killers MO. It was a way of alerting attention to the murder or timestamping it, like the Tabram murder. There is some mention that the killer may have had a different sounding voice. So... this could have been said by the killer as he was leaving.
Interesting. And if you were to compare these two scenarios from the point of view of the possibility and the probability respectively, at what conclusions could one reach?

Regards Pierre
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-24-2015, 01:12 PM
IchabodCrane IchabodCrane is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi,

What happened between 1.30 and 3.30/3.45 in Kelly´s room?

Why did Prater hear "Oh, murder!"?

"I left the room on the Thursday at five p.m., and returned to it at about one a.m. on Friday morning. I stood at the corner until about twenty minutes past one. No one spoke to me. McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly. A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. "

Regards Pierre
Hi Pierre
What happened between 1.30 and 3.30/3.45 in Kelly´s room?
Kelly was sleeping after having entertained her last customer for the Night.

Why did Prater hear "Oh, murder!"?
Because Kelly was being murdered in the room below and it was her muffled last words that Prater and others heard.

The much more interesting trivia about Prater's witness statement is why she was NOT asked by the coroner whether she saw any light coming from Kelly's room after 5 am when she claimed to have gone to the pub for another round. Because such a big fire would have burned for more than an hour.

Why did the man loitering in front of Miller's court not enter her room before 2.30?

Cheers
IchabodCrane
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-24-2015, 01:13 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,246
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
GAROTT. The ecchymosis on her neck is an indication of strangulation with a ligature (red handkerchief?).
Ecchymosis is not a specific indicator of strangulation with a ligature - or of strangulation with anything, for that matter. Ecchymosis, being the leakage of blood into the skin, can be a feature of many types of injury, including punches, pinches, cuts and stab wounds.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-24-2015, 01:28 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,338
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IchabodCrane View Post
Hi Pierre
What happened between 1.30 and 3.30/3.45 in Kelly´s room?
Kelly was sleeping after having entertained her last customer for the Night.

Why did Prater hear "Oh, murder!"?
Because Kelly was being murdered in the room below and it was her muffled last words that Prater and others heard.

The much more interesting trivia about Prater's witness statement is why she was NOT asked by the coroner whether she saw any light coming from Kelly's room after 5 am when she claimed to have gone to the pub for another round. Because such a big fire would have burned for more than an hour.

Why did the man loitering in front of Miller's court not enter her room before 2.30?

Cheers
IchabodCrane
because he was waiting for Blotchy to leave
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-24-2015, 01:38 PM
IchabodCrane IchabodCrane is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
because he was waiting for Blotchy to leave
Hi,
Was blotchy sticking around in the dark then because we heard from Prater that there was no light?
Cheers
IchabodCrane
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-24-2015, 01:57 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IchabodCrane View Post

The much more interesting trivia about Prater's witness statement is why she was NOT asked by the coroner whether she saw any light coming from Kelly's room after 5 am when she claimed to have gone to the pub for another round. Because such a big fire would have burned for more than an hour.

Cheers
IchabodCrane
Hi,

So they did not believe there could have been a fire in the room at that time.

Regards Pierre
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-24-2015, 02:07 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,264
Default

The fire was lit in the morning, to boil water, but Kelly was killed before the kettle could be taken off, her boots were near the fire, as she had ventured out in the morning drizzle, I maintain she was killed by the middle aged market porter she was seen talking to around 845 am.[ By Maxwell]...she ventured back to her room. her client, followed on a few minutes later, he entered her room. she was stripped down to her chemise, and the rest is history..
Regards Richard.
This is all speculation, but as Pierre says,some alteration of data, has an alternative view.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.