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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #11  
Old 06-25-2017, 10:16 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi.
If one takes Mrs Praters inquest observation, it was if ''Awakening from a nightmare'' things make sense,
A completely different person, stated some years later [ Lottie] to Kit Watkins,a Canadian Journalist .
Mary told me, she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and it frightened her,[this was sometime after the Eddowes murder, and apparently shortly before Kelly's demise].
Note the subject of the dream , and the words heard from room 13..''Oh Murder''.
Fits rather well on someone having a recurrence , of a nightmare don't you think?.
I have always believed that Mary Kelly was alive in daylight , and met her end shortly before /after 9.am.
That would fit in with witness accounts, and the police initial belief,
Regards Richard.
Hi Richard,

and the statements from the inquest about the nightmare (and violets and singing) was in the press long before Watkins talked to Lottie.

Regards, Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 06-25-2017 at 10:19 AM.
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  #12  
Old 06-25-2017, 10:31 AM
Merry_Olde_Mary Merry_Olde_Mary is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
"Mary told me, she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and it frightened her." [This was sometime after the Eddowes murder, and apparently shortly before Kelly's demise].

Note the subject of the dream , and the words heard from room 13..''Oh Murder''. Fits rather well on someone having a recurrence , of a nightmare don't you think?.
Thanks. That puts the words in a more understandable (potential) context.

Very sad, too.

Poor little mite...
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  #13  
Old 06-25-2017, 10:37 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi Jon.
The killer mutilated Eddowes in a very short space of time, if you worsen that 10 fold, you are looking at no more then 40 minutes , top wack.
Mary's killer could have been out that room by 9.45 easily, how he managed to achieve that is another matter.
Regards Richard.
Hi Richard.

I don't recall there being an indepth debate on Casebook about whether Kelly could truly have been murdered so late.
I know a few do support the idea but it is never explored as a serious theory.

Maybe we should, at least it would be a refreshing change
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  #14  
Old 06-25-2017, 10:43 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Merry_Olde_Mary View Post
If we are to assume that the cry of "Murder!" the Miller's Court neighbor claimed to hear was made by the attacked Kelly herself...aren't those kind of strange last words?

Wouldn't a cornered or attacked person cry "Stop!" or "Help!" or something more...immediate? "Murder!" just sounds more...observational. Which I guess it could have been (ie, someone seeing the crime scene, then taking off), but I've always thought it implied that this was Kelly speaking.
.
Right from the start it always sounded to me like the response of a third-party. Like, someone peeked through the crack in the window and saw the body, or saw the murderer in action.
Which raises a whole bunch of new questions about a missing witness, someone who chose not to come forward.
I don't see that as a problem, but others have.
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  #15  
Old 06-25-2017, 10:45 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi Pierre.
Lottie who disclosed that to Kit Watkins , was resident in room 13 , when interviewed,
Unless she on the spot remembered , that Mrs Prater had mentioned a bit about a nightmare from the inquest report, and quickly incorporated it into a story that fitted hers.
I would say that is unlikely to have happened .
I would say both Praters and Lottie's accounts of a bad dream, are independent of each other, and give credence to my theory,
Regards Richard.
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  #16  
Old 06-25-2017, 11:00 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi Pierre.
Lottie who disclosed that to Kit Watkins , was resident in room 13 , when interviewed,
Unless she on the spot remembered , that Mrs Prater had mentioned a bit about a nightmare from the inquest report, and quickly incorporated it into a story that fitted hers.
I would say that is unlikely to have happened .
I would say both Praters and Lottie's accounts of a bad dream, are independent of each other, and give credence to my theory,
Regards Richard.
Hi Richards,

I understand what you mean.

But how can you know that the accounts or sources are independent when the source from 1892 has Lottie saying the same three things earlier stated by Prater in newspaper articles after the inquest in 1888?

Regards, Pierre
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  #17  
Old 06-25-2017, 11:11 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi Pierre.
When it all boils down to, is its all hearsay.
There are so many coincidences, and so many theories.
Must say there must be a life away from Lechmere.
I have always looked at the little bits of puzzle, and try to fit them
Regards Richard.
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  #18  
Old 06-25-2017, 07:41 PM
Merry_Olde_Mary Merry_Olde_Mary is offline
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Diddles the cat, who lived upstairs with Elizabeth Prater, should have been questioned as well!

I was rewatching From Hell (2001) the other night (which is at least beautifully designed) and when the characters first walk into Miller's Court, a cat darts by. It made me smile. I was like, "DIDDLES!"

I think they took a lot of care with building the sets for that film. Here's a bonus feature video discussing their production design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFnBSBZazK8
.

Last edited by Merry_Olde_Mary : 06-25-2017 at 07:53 PM.
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  #19  
Old 06-26-2017, 05:18 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merry_Olde_Mary View Post
If we are to assume that the cry of "Murder!" the Miller's Court neighbor claimed to hear was made by the attacked Kelly herself...aren't those kind of strange last words?

Wouldn't a cornered or attacked person cry "Stop!" or "Help!" or something more...immediate? "Murder!" just sounds more...observational. Which I guess it could have been (ie, someone seeing the crime scene, then taking off), but I've always thought it implied that this was Kelly speaking.
.
Hi merry

There was good discussion about this point a while back and it was shown that at the time, if one really needed help, and or wanted police to enter a house to help, which Mary obviously was, then it was well known to shout murder.

I think if Mary was awoken and or in a drunken half asleep mode to being attacked I don't find it odd at all. We need to keep in mind to our modern ear it just sounds odd.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #20  
Old 06-26-2017, 05:20 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merry_Olde_Mary View Post
Diddles the cat, who lived upstairs with Elizabeth Prater, should have been questioned as well!

I was rewatching From Hell (2001) the other night (which is at least beautifully designed) and when the characters first walk into Miller's Court, a cat darts by. It made me smile. I was like, "DIDDLES!"

I think they took a lot of care with building the sets for that film. Here's a bonus feature video discussing their production design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFnBSBZazK8
.
Love that movie!

I think didlles may have been awoken to the smell of blood and perhaps prater was off a bit on her memory. I had a cat and it used to get very agitated at the smell of blood. One time roommate was cleaning some very bloody deer meat and my cat started getting active, including constantly rubbing up against my leg.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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