Left or right handed.

[Mrs. Fiddymont]

Rivkah, it's interesting that you mentioned the distinction between lefties who write "with a hook" and those who write "mirror-image"--more like we righties write. (Hmm..."righties write" somehow sounds anything but right, but whatever.... )

My friend, Carole, writes with a very distinctive "hook". She twists her wrist and forearm around until you'd think it was painful, but it doesn't seem to bother her a bit. I think the whole subject of handedness is very complex but I agree it may have a connection (at least in some cases) with learning disabilities, but Carole has no learning disabilities I know of. She was always an excellent student and in fact is now a first-grade teacher--with a Master's Degree!! The only thing I've noticed that's "different" about her is that she's extremely creative--she is a gifted writer (esp. poetry) and she draws beautifully. And she has that gorgeous penmanship as well, which I imagine is related to her artistic abilities. (My right-handed penmanship looks like Babylonian cuneiform, lol. And really really bad cuneiform at that! )

My left-handed uncle, by a weird coincidence, shared my friend's name, only spelled the masculine way: Carroll. Which was made even more confusing by the fact that my mother's only sibling is a sister named Carol, so I grew up with a paternal Uncle Carroll and a maternal Aunt Carol. Talk about confusing!!! And I'm pretty sure Uncle Carroll wrote the "mirror-image" way, more like us righties. I do think there's some kind of genetic difference between lefties who write with a hook and those who hold a pen more like righties, but alas I am no authority on genetics altho I find it a fascinating subject.

Sorry...I never know when to stop talking and I'm afraid we've wandered way off-topic! I am soooo ashamed of myself.

[Sally]

Yeah.

Writing with a 'hook' is a natural thing to do in the days before we used pens that didn't smudge.

We wirte from left to right in the West.

Think about it.

[RivkahChaya]

Yeah.

Writing with a 'hook' is a natural thing to do in the days before we used pens that didn't smudge.

We wirte from left to right in the West.

Think about it.

Except that it's still a "natural" thing for a certain percentage of left-handed people who are not old enough ever to have written with a fountain pen-- which is the US is anyone under 45, and a lot of older people. I know fountain pens got used into the late 1970s in schools in Europe, because I had to own one when I went to Embassy school in Moscow (my teacher was English), and I liked them, so I used one in high school, but I didn't know a single other American my age who did. Everything is typed and printed now. I wouldn't know where to go to find a fountain pen-- I think I'd have to order it.

Likewise, I know many left-handers who are quite a bit older than I am who don't write with a hook.

[niko]

!!up the lefties !!

Hallo everyone !!
I am a leftie and proud of it !! long live the lefties !!........... and the righties of course !! heh,heh,heh. At the age of five I was living in the Basque Country with my Basque grandperant's. At the time we were living the dictaitorship of Franco, the only language I spoke was Basque which my grandperant's had taught me, from fear my grandmother enroled me in private classes to learn Spanish, here was where I was obligated to write with my right hand, when I tried to write with my left hand I was told off !! I commented to my Bsque wife about writing with the left hand and she recalls that left handed children on acassions had their left hand tied behind their back's so to only use the right hand for writing, I'm not talking of the Victoian age I'm talking of 1970. I thought I must say I'm an excellent drawer, painter and I am a master bricky !!

Anyway let' get back to Jack !!

I find it nearly impossible to believe that Jack slit Strides throat from behind and more incredible of him to of slit Eddowes throat from behind minutes later, and less with a pen knife, rembering that both murder's were commited in very dark places !! I more belief Jack strangled them or druged them someway AND then slit their throat's. On Kelly my common sense tell's me he was left handed due to the evidence, If he was right handed I would think that Kelly's head would be lying at the foot of the bed .

Sorry to bore you with the next paragraph.

The knife I posses and believe to be the Coram knife has three clear notches engraved on the handle. I am no forensic but have come up to a certain conclusion that the person who engraved the notches was a !! LEFTIE !! all the best.

Niko.

[RivkahChaya]

Pen knife? I think if you tried to slit someone's throat with a pen knife, the knife would break. Does "pen knife" mean something else in the UK?

[niko]

Pen knife? I think if you tried to slit someone's throat with a pen knife, the knife would break. Does "pen knife" mean something else in the UK?

Forgive me RivkahChaya, I should of refered to a pocket knife, I supose a penkife is a smaller version of a pocket knife. I think I may be correct on calling a swiss army knife (multi bladed) a penknife, some one who knows better could maybe correct me on this, all the best

Niko.

[Michael W Richards]

It seems I was unclear as to why I feel we have ample evidence that the killer in room 13 used the knife in his left hand.

Mary was first attacked while she lay on her right side, on the right side of the bed. The splashes on the wall indicate this position. The killer will use his knife to place it across the victims throat, accessing the furthest point possible on the right hand side of her throat, and with some force, he would have pulled inward, and toward himself at the same time.

After the murder he moves her into the middle of the bed. He then stands, facing her, and proceeds to do his wet work, at some point during which he places stomach flaps and apparently some entrails on a small table, behind him, to his right.

Imagine either of those acts by a right handed man.

And Rivkah, when less that 1% or ANY given population is accurately described as being ambidextrous, its hardly a "most likely" scenario. Being equally adept with both hands is rare, and to perform his madness in room 13 he would have had to control his hand actions well. Presumably we have at least 1 very sharp knife in that room at the time.

Best regards

[RivkahChaya]

And Rivkah, when less that 1% or ANY given population is accurately described as being ambidextrous, its hardly a "most likely" scenario. Being equally adept with both hands is rare, and to perform his madness in room 13 he would have had to control his hand actions well. Presumably we have at least 1 very sharp knife in that room at the time.

If I said I thought it was likely the killer was ambidextrous, then I left a word out of a sentence.

I think all I meant, though, was that if the crime seemed to indicate an ambidextrous person, then it didn't matter what percentage of the population was ambidextrous. I don't think in this case the evidence does show that, though, but correct me if I'm wrong. I may have also meant that since we don't know what exactly causes ambidexterity, maybe serial killers are more likely to be so-- that's probably not true. It's just a caution about rushing to eliminate possibilities on statistics alone.

For the record, I don't think that JTR was ambidextrous, unless he was someone who used a knife left-handed, but wrote right-handed, because his teachers had forced him to do so-- he would still consistently use a knife left-handed, though, and not switch off. I'm not sure if that is what people mean when they say "ambidextrous," though: most people mean "being able to use both hands to write."

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not sure if that is what people mean when they say "ambidextrous," though: most people mean "being able to use both hands to write."

Im thinking that using either hand equally effectively when carving a turkey with a large bladed knife might be an appropriate analogy.

All the best Rivkah

[The Good Michael]

Too much is made of this idea of the killer being left-handed. It is obvious that Kelly was killed in a way that the blood would splash away from the killer, much as he had done before. That direction would have been toward the wall. The hand didn't matter. If right-handed, he would have easily held her with the left and done the job. The mistake people make is to think that they were spooning and then he casually reached around her and did it. Same as the others.

Mike

[RivkahChaya]

Im thinking that using either hand equally effectively when carving a turkey with a large bladed knife might be an appropriate analogy.

All the best Rivkah

Then, what's the definition for vegetarians?

RE: the original speculation that the killer was left-handed. I think in the case of Polly Nichols, where she was known to be soliciting, and Annie Chapman, where it's fairly certain she went out with that intent, the police presumed a frontal attack, because that meant the killer was getting ready to assume the missionary position. Anything else just didn't cross their radar. I don't think it was an issue of prudery, but rather one of presuming little experimentation went on with 4d lays in the alley. The fact that the women might offer oral or anal sex as a means of birth control was just something I don't think was in the consciousness of the police.

If the women had not been soliciting, then the police might have theorized a surprise attack from behind, by a right-handed killer, since right-handedness was more common.

Once the "down on whores" letter was received, then the police began looking at any cut-throat murder as a potential JTR murder, and therefore the victim as probably a prostitute.

[GregBaron]

Righty till the hovel...

Hi y’all,

I think most think the killer of Cs 1-4 to be right handed because of blood spatter and starting point of the wound. I believe Cs 1-3 were throttled first and then laid on the ground where the throat cut took place. A right hander would lift the jaw with his left and cut across the throat from her left to right. This way he would not get any blood on his clothing. A lefty doesn’t work from the evidence, I don’t think I need to go into the logistics. A cut from behind while standing would have left more blood on the front of the victims...

Also, I don’t think anyone laid on the nasty wet ground to do the dirty deed with a prostitute. The going method was up against fences standing up, whether fore or aft, quite romantic isn’t it?

While I don’t think it’s cut and dried (sorry), the left handed hypothesis for MJK makes some logistical sense. If accepted, this also lends credence to the multi-perp theory. Darn..

Also, it seems Stride was pulled by the scarf and sliced by a righty as she was being pulled to the ground….a slightly different M.O. to the others…

Greg

[The Good Michael]

While I don’t think it’s cut and dried (sorry), the left handed hypothesis for MJK makes some logistical sense. If accepted, this also lends credence to the multi-perp theory. Darn..

How does it make more logistical sense than a right-handed killer? If she was more towards the wall, it doesn't really matter. Would it have been easier for Kelly to have stood up and turned her back on the killer and say, "Ok, this should help."? Sure, but it wouldn't have mattered either way for a guy wanting to kill.
Mike

[RivkahChaya]

Also, I don’t think anyone laid on the nasty wet ground to do the dirty deed with a prostitute.

Well, no, I'm sure they stood, but the police probably still thought of it as a "standing missionary."

How would a tall man do that with a short, overweight Chapman? I wonder if that's where the steps came in.

Also, that can't have been a place she routinely took tricks, or Cadosche would be accustomed to hearing banging on the fence. Does that mean that going there was the killer's idea?

[GregBaron]

Fence bangers...

Well, no, I'm sure they stood, but the police probably still thought of it as a "standing missionary."

How would a tall man do that with a short, overweight Chapman? I wonder if that's where the steps came in.

Also, that can't have been a place she routinely took tricks, or Cadosche would be accustomed to hearing banging on the fence. Does that mean that going there was the killer's idea?

I don't think there were that many tall men in Whitechapel RivkahChaya but I imagine they were creative if necessary....

I believe the backyard at #29 was known as a spot for immoral purposes but whether Cadosche had heard banging in the past is a good question. I imagine it wasn't typical for him to be in the backyard when such banging was occurring....Remember he had serious intestinal issues on the morning in question...


Greg