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  • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
    I am sorry, it was worded a little too economically. I was responding to Abby Normal's theory that some parts of the victims the killer wanted to keep.
    My counterargument was: then why not assume he wanted to keep the heads, since they were the only part never found in any of the cases? (in the four torso cases we were discussing)
    I do not personally believe he kept them, since it is just as likely they were disposed of in the Thames and never found.
    Also, I only discuss the various possible actions of the Torso Killer in the context of Abby Normal's argument; I do not at present accept that a torso killer actually existed, since there is little evidence to suggest his existence.
    If he did exist, then I agree he would be a he


    This presupposes that we agree on what damage was intentionally inflicted by a murderer or dismemberer. I do not think we do.
    You frequently use terms and phrases in a particular manner in order to suggest more of a link than is actually present. Case in point, "the uterus having been taken" - well, was it? Not really in the same manner, was it? Jackson's uterus was cut out, but since she was heavily pregnant, it's very possible that it was only because someone wanted access to the foetus. The uterus was found bundled up with other parts of her, and so cannot really be shown to have had any particular significance. So yes, it was "cut out" but there's a big difference in the context.
    Similarly, "necks cut" - a cut throat in a murder victim is something altogether different from a decapitation of a woman already dead from natural causes.

    I think the overlap in "mysteries", in particular the ending at roughly the same time, is the most suggestive of a common origin. The damage, as stated, is not very similar, and indeed, any similarity could easily be incidental.


    The damage listed does not link the two series, since the similarity is superficial and could easily stem from the practical concerns of (quickly) cutting open a human body. The fact that Jackson was pregnant, the slips cut were from the front of her belly, along with the damage to the uterus must necessitate speculation that the main objective was to gain access to the foetus. Since we don't know that she was actually murdered, there's no reason to link her to the Ripper crimes.

    The link between the series that does exist is the contemporary speculation that some of the torso cases were the Ripper's work.
    Sadly for you, that is also one of the main arguments against any link since the authorities dismissed a connection.

    Similarly, the main evidence for arguing that some of the torso cases are linked is Hebbert's belief that they were: the opinion of an experienced medical man who witnesses all four cases. Others disagreed but of course, his opinion constitutes a real linking of cases.
    1. Thanks for the explanation - I see now what you meant.

    2. Yes, my presupposition is that we are dealing with intentionally inflicted damage. The uterus was taken in all three cases, and I see no conflict in putting it in that way. I fully accept that we cannot know with any certainty WHY it was taken, but taken it was. As for the severed necks, I have already commented on that in combination with an exactly similar post of Gareths. Yes, there is a difference in cutting a neck to kill and dismembering a head. But no, we do not know that the torso man did not cut to kill initially, and indeed, this was suggested by the doctors to have been the case.
    I have repeatedly said that I am not adding any interpretation, additions, excuses or alternative solutions - I am simply accepting that the necks were severed in each case, and so that is treated as a similarity - wich indeed it is. It is the underlying reasons for the cutting that may or may not involve dissimilarities.

    3. I donīt agree that any similarity easily can be coincidental. The abdominal flaps are such a rare inclusion that it cannot easily be accpeted that it was coincidental. However, taken each on their own, each similarity CAN per se be coincidental. But since there are many of them, that does not speak for two killers but instead for just the one. Every added similarity strengthens that case, and any heightened degree of being unusual does the same. Thatīs why I end up where I do, and why I recommend those of a different meaning to speak to policemen, forensic psychologists etc, who have practical knowledge and experience of these matters. I have no dount at all that they will agree with me about how totaly weird it would be if the similarities were purely coincidental. But donīt take my word for it - ask those in the know!

    4. The notion that the damage is superficial builds on opinion only. We may be dealing with tin (or triplet) damages, for all we know. For example, thereīs no telling whether the flaps were all very similar in apparition or not, and thereīs no telling whether they came about as the result of the exact same idea with the killer or not.
    Assuming that there must have been a difference on account of Jackson being pregnant is not something we can do.
    Last edited by Fisherman; 04-07-2018, 06:42 AM.

    Comment


    • Kattrup! Your suggestion "Sadly for you, that is also one of the main arguments against any link since the authorities dismissed a connection", only carries weight if we accept that the police got it right.

      I donīt think they did. And there were very good reasons for it, a main such reason being that they had very much less insight into the psychological reasons for these kinds of murders. Indeed, they seemingly worked from the assumption that dismemberment was always a practical consideration.

      Given that background, Iīd strongly recommend not to overinvest in the insights of the Victorian police.
      Last edited by Fisherman; 04-07-2018, 06:54 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
        Hi Jerry - The head was recovered in the 1884 case known as the Tottenham Road torso. And, the face was disfigured at the mouth with a cut from a knife. The eyes were plucked out of the head and the nose cut off.
        Where is this info please ? I really need to read more on these murders, Any suggestions anyone ?
        Regarding Tottenham i thought it was thought to be an abortion gone wrong, plus the head had been put in lime to try and conceal any ID. Sorry if i am wrong.
        East London Press,
        November 8,1884




        The Magnet
        Nov 10, 1884


        Comment


        • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
          The theory would serve as a good vehicle to remember Elizabeth's human qualities and her life story within a backdrop of illegitimacy, abortion, infanticide and the seldom mentioned brutality that ordinary everyday people were often capable of in those days, especially women.

          Selling out or playing the game?
          Actually thinking you are having us on, Debra. I canīt understand why Mr Marriott has not turned up yet, champagne in hand...?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
            East London Press,
            November 8,1884




            The Magnet
            Nov 10, 1884


            I wonder if that counts as mutilation? Any ideas?

            Or was the cutting away of Eddowesī nose dismemberment, led on by a wish to facilitate transportation (of the nosetip)?

            It keeps piling up, one has to say.

            To note: the mutilation (well, it IS called mutilation in the papers, but journalists will do these things... ) took place soon after death. This is a reoccurring theme, it is as if the killer is eager to start cutting.
            Last edited by Fisherman; 04-07-2018, 07:04 AM.

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            • Christer,

              The part that I don't quite get about this particular torso (Tottenham Court Road) is why go to all the trouble to conceal identification and then take the risky move of depositing the parts along a major roadway in the middle of West London? Why not just find a spot and bury them or throw them into the river?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                I wonder if that counts as mutilation? Any ideas?

                Or was the cutting away of Eddowesī nose dismemberment, led on by a wish to facilitate transportation (of the nosetip)?

                It keeps piling up, one has to say.

                To note: the mutilation (well, it IS called mutilation in the papers, but journalists will do these things... ) took place soon after death. This is a reoccurring theme, it is as if the killer is eager to start cutting.
                I admit, I lol'ed at that comment.

                Jimmy Durante's nose may have taken a wheelbarrow to move?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                  Actually thinking you are having us on, Debra. I canīt understand why Mr Marriott has not turned up yet, champagne in hand...?
                  I'm actually serious, Christer.
                  I think a theory on the the death of Elizabeth Jackson that is based around the framework of genuine victims of Victorian morality, illegitimacy, criminal abortion, infanticide and poverty would be interesting. It would be factual with the odd little bit of speculation on some research loose ends.

                  Comment


                  • ...Or I could have been deliberately sent here to kill the thread off.
                    In days past all it took was to mention Mary Jane Kelly's pubic hair. Scott will tell you.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                      Christer,

                      The part that I don't quite get about this particular torso (Tottenham Court Road) is why go to all the trouble to conceal identification and then take the risky move of depositing the parts along a major roadway in the middle of West London? Why not just find a spot and bury them or throw them into the river?
                      Hi Jerry
                      For me, and I’ve said it numerous times, is that the way the killer got rid of or displayed the torso/ parts is that it a special significance for him.

                      Making a statement of some kind? Marking certain areas?
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                        I'm actually serious, Christer.
                        I think a theory on the the death of Elizabeth Jackson that is based around the framework of genuine victims of Victorian morality, illegitimacy, criminal abortion, infanticide and poverty would be interesting. It would be factual with the odd little bit of speculation on some research loose ends.
                        Hi debs.
                        Good stuff. So do you think she was murdered by her husband and or family? And or Botched abortion? Please expound.
                        Last edited by Abby Normal; 04-07-2018, 08:08 AM.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                          East London Press,
                          November 8,1884




                          The Magnet
                          Nov 10, 1884


                          Wonder how easy Carbolic Acid would have been to obtain?

                          curious

                          Comment


                          • Just a few thoughts on Tottenham Court Road. On Jtr forums link http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=7919 there was a discussion on the case including Debra. On the newspaper reports it mentions the appearance of lime on the body also that the Doctor thought that an abortion had been attempted or completed. looking at old case files i came across this
                            When Henry Wainwright shot an ‘inconvenient’ mistress in London in 1874. He interred her remains packed in a half-weight of Chlorinated lime and stored it in his Whitechapel workshop. A year went past until he had to move the packages from the premises of get found out. As he was attempting to move the packages, his landlord appeared and offered to give him a hand with the hand tied packages down the stairs and in to the boot of the car, trying not to seem suspicious Wainwright agreed and told the landlord to mind the parcels while he went out to open the boot. By this time the landlord had noticed a liquid leaking from one of the parcels and so had a peek inside one of them. To his horror the package contained a human arm and hand attached,he quickly covered it up again before Wainwright came back. He was then able to go straight to the police who arrested Wainwright trying to dispose of the remains elsewhere.
                            So well did the lime preserve poor Harriet Lanes (Her name) corpse that even one year later the physicians were able to prove her identity by a triumphant twelve points of similarity; twelve points that sent Wainwright straight to the gallows.
                            Could the killer have made the same mistake and used some form of lime to try and get rid of the body, also could the lime have burnt the eyes out and maybe even the tip of the nose ? Maybe, maybe not. Could the killer have panicked when he realized the lime hadn't worked and tried to disfigure the facial figures as to avoid ID ? Jerry says himself - The part that I don't quite get about this particular torso (Tottenham Court Road) is why go to all the trouble to conceal identification and then take the risky move of depositing the parts along a major roadway in the middle of West London? . maybe because of the panicking and the need to get rid of the body quickly after the lime didn't work.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by curious View Post
                              Wonder how easy Carbolic Acid would have been to obtain?

                              curious
                              Common household and industrial disinfectant at the time.
                              Best Wishes,
                              Hunter
                              ____________________________________________

                              When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hunter View Post
                                Common household and industrial disinfectant at the time.

                                Thanks, Hunter.

                                I had learned that it had been used as an antiseptic in hospitals as early as 1867, but have no idea of how common/uncommon it might have been.

                                So, it is a disinfectant with apparently a sweet smell -- from what I read.

                                So, why would the killer have packed the parts in a disinfectant?


                                curious

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