Queen Mary and Lord Mayor

[David Orsam]

If the motive is all about religious controversy in the late Victorian period, especially the position of Roman Catholics in England at the time, and his suspect is connected with that, why not just be open about it and say so?

Also, Pierre, following on from Rosella's post, why not simply post a copy or the text of the letter that was published in the press? You have told us it doesn't contain the name of the killer so we will still be in the dark about that (and no innocent people will be accused). And you have told us it is digitised, so it can't be destroyed.

There are a lot of members of this forum who will be able to help you with deciphering the letter in case you have missed any clues, and they will ensure you do not make basic errors like getting your Marys confused.

[Pierre]

How many historical characters is Pierre going to introduce into this narrative of his? Tennyson's 'Queen Mary' was about Mary I ('Bloody Mary') not Mary Queen of Scots, who was of course cousin to both Elizabeth I and Mary I.

I guess this all is leading to Roman Catholicism in the Protestant country of England in the 1880's. What's next, James I and Guy Fawkes?

Hi Rosella,

it was the name, not the queen.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

... Queen Elizabeth I.

(This grows more and more interesting...)

Thank you Pcdunn.

Because in this letter which I think is written by the killer, he also gives the adress with the room number to Elizabeth Prater.

Now, we know that Elizabeth said that she barricaded her door with two tables.

She was lucky.

Pierre

[David Orsam]

Because in this letter which I think is written by the killer, he also gives the adress with the room number to Elizabeth Prater.

Now, we know that Elizabeth said that she barricaded her door with two tables.

Am I understanding you correctly that the letter you have found contains the names Mary and Elizabeth and a reference to Lord Mayor's Day?

And you think that Mary is actually Mary Jane Kelly while Elizabeth is actually Elizabeth Prater?

[Pierre]

Am I understanding you correctly that the letter you have found contains the names Mary and Elizabeth and a reference to Lord Mayor's Day?

And you think that Mary is actually Mary Jane Kelly while Elizabeth is actually Elizabeth Prater?

Hi David,

The letter gives the street adress and both room numbers of Mary and Elizabeth in metaphorical style and it gives a hint at Tennyson.

Tennyson wrote the drama Queen Mary and the drama includes Elizabeth as well as the Lord Mayor.

Of course he would not write their true names and adresses in the newspapers. The police would have been waiting for him.

But I think one reason for the extensive mutilations on Kelly was that he could not enter the room of Elizabeth because the door was barricaded with two tables.

That must have been a great disappointment to him.

Pierre

[MysterySinger]

Intriguing - but I think I'm confused as to exactly where Elizabeth Prater's room was. Since in some references it was directly above Mary's room but in others it was at the front of 26 Dorset Street (above where they stored the barrows).

[Pierre]

Intriguing - but I think I'm confused as to exactly where Elizabeth Prater's room was. Since in some references it was directly above Mary's room but in others it was at the front of 26 Dorset Street (above where they stored the barrows).

Hi,

It was number 20.

"Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below. I left the room on the Thursday at five p.m., and returned to it at about one a.m. on Friday morning. I stood at the corner until about twenty minutes past one. No one spoke to me. McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables."

http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...est_kelly.html

Pierre

[MysterySinger]

The other thing is that I formed an opinion that the information on Elizabeth Prater in the witness section of Casebook (from Wiki) might be wrong but I can't seem to access it at all at the moment. Has it disappeared?

Also, if Jack was intending to target 2 women that night then that would give more credence to the letter sent a week before the murder of Mary from 14 Dorset Street regarding Yarmouth and the reference to the murder of two Norwich women. As far as I could determine, the term "Norwich Woman" referred to someone getting more than their fair share (not sure of what though).

[MysterySinger]

I found a reference to a William Prater, boot machinist, who was sent to jail for a few years. That Elizabeth had different details to those shown on Casebook but the date he went to jail was around the time EP stated she was deserted. Probably all a red herring in terms of your theory Pierre but, hey these things are important.

[Pierre]

I found a reference to a William Prater, boot machinist, who was sent to jail for a few years. That Elizabeth had different details to those shown on Casebook but the date he went to jail was around the time EP stated she was deserted. Probably all a red herring in terms of your theory Pierre but, hey these things are important.

Well, the person I believe to be the murderer isnīt William Prater.

Regards Pierre

[MysterySinger]

In a previous post it was said that the two piers art Yarmouth had the same names as 2 pubs in Whitechapel (with Miller's Court in between them).

[Pierre]

In a previous post it was said that the two piers art Yarmouth had the same names as 2 pubs in Whitechapel (with Miller's Court in between them).

Hi,

yes, I do belive he wrote that one to. He was sitting at the pub that night waiting for the stupid police to come in and search for him. He did not write the exact adress of the murder scene but chose one just opposite the street to get the police to go looking there.

Now you see what I mean when I say one of his grand motives was to humiliate the police.

This type of language is what I define as metaphorical language. He uses it several times in his communication with the police.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

The letter gives the street adress and both room numbers of Mary and Elizabeth in metaphorical style and it gives a hint at Tennyson.

Tennyson wrote the drama Queen Mary and the drama includes Elizabeth as well as the Lord Mayor.

Now let's see if I've got this right.

The letter does not mention the name 'Mary' in any form of language, metaphorical or otherwise.

What it does is 'hint' at Tennyson and because it hints at Tennyson you immediately think of the drama Queen Mary which then makes you think of Mary Jane Kelly.

And because the drama also includes Queen Elizabeth you think of Elizabeth Prater and because it also includes the Lord Mayor you think of Lord Mayor's Day which is 9 November 1888.

Am I fairly summarising your thinking here?

[Pierre]

Now let's see if I've got this right.

The letter does not mention the name 'Mary' in any form of language, metaphorical or otherwise.

What it does is 'hint' at Tennyson and because it hints at Tennyson you immediately think of the drama Queen Mary which then makes you think of Mary Jane Kelly.

And because the drama also includes Queen Elizabeth you think of Elizabeth Prater and because it also includes the Lord Mayor you think of Lord Mayor's Day which is 9 November 1888.

Am I fairly summarising your thinking here?

Well, since you havenīt got all the information abuot this letter, the summarising of my thinking is not sufficient. It is of course my own fault since I havenīt given you the total content of the letter. Sorry about that. But there are some bits that I canīt reveal yet. Even though this letter is not part of my theory. I would just say that it confirms it, if he did write it.

Regard Pierre

[David Orsam]

Well, since you havenīt got all the information abuot this letter, the summarising of my thinking is not sufficient.

So what is preventing you from summarising it more accurately?