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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #71  
Old 09-18-2018, 11:16 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Morris Eagle said in his inquest testimony, Her feet were towards the gates, about six or seven feet from them. In other words, she was a good couple of metres within the yard. Now to my mind, Liz after being assaulted in the street would have gone kicking and screaming into Dutfileds with her assailant not just scream, not very loudly according to Schwartz. Yet nobody saw or heard her putting up a fight, nor is there any evidence that she did, in fact, the evidence points the other way, yes those damned cachous etc
This is what Schwartz said, The man tried to pull the woman into the street. Does that sound like a killer who then goes on to kill Liz in a darkened passageway, swiftly and silently? Not for me. Not only that but he draws attention to himself by shouting Lipski, and even if we surmise that he did this to scare Schwartz off how would he know that someone else, Fanny Mortimer, for instance, wouldn't come to her door to see what the commotion was and witnessed him? But of course, the cry of Lipski aimed at a man of strong Jewish appearance would almost certainly be thrown by a Gentile thus casting doubt on the IWEC being involved in the strong anti-Semitic climate.
You say that "nobody saw or heard her putting up a fight" but isn't that what Schwartz claims to have done? I think his rather strange claim that she called out but not very loudly might be explained by the fact that Stride was being strangled/choked and was thus unable to make more noise than she did. I think Schwartz witnessed the first part of the murder (perhaps not a popular view these days).
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  #72  
Old 09-18-2018, 11:16 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Indeed Richard. Doctor Blackwell, and Doctor Philips were in no doubt that Liz Stride was murdered where she lay. Both searched for blood stains other than the stream of blood which extended from her neck down to the gutter, and could find none.
Some possible reasons they found no other blood:

Pulled tight scarf
blood found on hand indicates she instictively put hand over wound
wet street and sidewalks
They missed it
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  #73  
Old 09-18-2018, 11:18 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
You say that "nobody saw or heard her putting up a fight" but isn't that what Schwartz claims to have done? I think his rather strange claim that she called out but not very loudly might be explained by the fact that Stride was being strangled/choked and was thus unable to make more noise than she did. I think Schwartz witnessed the first part of the murder (perhaps not a popular view these days).
well me and Sam agree with you
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #74  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:07 PM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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Not only was there no blood on the street but there were no cachous either, yet some were strewn in the yard as well as being in Liz's hand. So BSM decides to slit Liz's throat in the middle of the street while there are two witnesses nearby? Sorry but not for my money.
Fanny Mortimer - I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. - A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. - A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.
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  #75  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:18 PM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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Question to Frederick Blackwell - [Coroner] Was there any blood on the soles of the deceased's boots? - No. And I examined the clothes but found no blood on any part of them.
So it looks likely she didn't stand in any blood whilst staggering into the yard nor did any blood flow southward down her clothes. not impossible but I would think highly unlikely

Last edited by Darryl Kenyon : 09-18-2018 at 12:25 PM.
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  #76  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:34 PM
Observer Observer is offline
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Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Question to Frederick Blackwell - [Coroner] Was there any blood on the soles of the deceased's boots? - No.
So it looks likely she didn't stand in any blood whilst staggering into the yard. Not impossible but if the artery was partially severed would it be unreasonable to suppose that blood would have flowed out from her neck in front of her and she might have stood in some?
Look at the amount of blood that had drained from her neck into the gutter, a substantial amount. If she had been cut out on the street and staggered into the yard, considering the severity of the cut, there would have been substantial amounts of blood, both on the street, and her clothing. There was none. I'll go with the Doctors observations.
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  #77  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:52 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Not only was there no blood on the street but there were no cachous either, yet some were strewn in the yard as well as being in Liz's hand. So BSM decides to slit Liz's throat in the middle of the street while there are two witnesses nearby? Sorry but not for my money.
Fanny Mortimer - I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. - A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. - A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.
Hi DK
To me he could have cut her throat after the two skidadled.
no blood on the street-the streets were wet-could have gotten diluted, blood on her hand-she may have put her hand over the wound.
Fanny Mortimer adds little -she saw neither stride nor BS man. I doubt she was at her door the length of time she said.
cashoo are a red herring-youve been reading too much sherlock holmes ; )
she simply held on to them through the attack. Its well known that people are found clutching things in there hand/s after violent deaths-car accidents, murders etc.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 09-18-2018 at 01:03 PM.
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  #78  
Old 09-18-2018, 01:02 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Why did she have blood on her hand?

The only wound that would she had that would produce blood was the neck wound.


So obviously when her throat was cut she put her hand on the wound (an instintive reaction BTW) which probably explains the lack of blood found on her clothes, shoes, street etc.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #79  
Old 09-18-2018, 01:38 PM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer View Post
Look at the amount of blood that had drained from her neck into the gutter, a substantial amount. If she had been cut out on the street and staggered into the yard, considering the severity of the cut, there would have been substantial amounts of blood, both on the street, and her clothing. There was none. I'll go with the Doctors observations.
Agreed
[Coroner] Have you formed any opinion as to the manner in which the deceased's right hand became stained with blood? - It is a mystery. There were small oblong clots on the back of the hand. I may say that I am taking it as a fact that after death the hand always remained in the position in which I found it - across the body.
If Liz had grasped her throat surely the palm of the hand would have been covered in blood.
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  #80  
Old 09-18-2018, 01:44 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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" So BSM decides to slit Liz's throat in the middle of the street while there are two witnesses nearby? Sorry but not for my money. "

Hello Darryl,

That never made sense to me either. Schwartz said Stride was alive when he left the scene. If the BS man leaves shortly thereafter all he is guilty of is pushing a woman to the ground. Why kill her?

c.d.
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