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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #831  
Old 09-11-2018, 07:12 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
I was going to say “that sucks” Gary but I decided not to.

Admin! He'f fwearing again!!
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  #832  
Old 09-11-2018, 07:35 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is online now
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
John Richardson - Liar or idiot.
Elizabeth Long - Liar or 2 hours out in her sighting.
Albert Cadosch - Liar or 2 hours out in his testimony.

Which is the likeliest?
Hi HS

I believe Phillips is the most likely to be correct, as basically, he knew Chapman hadn`t been killed within the last hour.

John Richardson - the body was obviously not there when he was in the yard - my guess then, is that Chapman was killed not long after Richardson left the yard.

Liz Long - flaky witness at best. She went to the police a number of days after the event, and on what was her recollection based ? A couple of people speaking to each other as she passed them

Albert Cadosch - only aware of the murder after the event, and didn`t investigate the noises he said he heard. So noises could have been somewhere else.
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  #833  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:03 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Hi HS

I believe Phillips is the most likely to be correct, as basically, he knew Chapman hadn`t been killed within the last hour.

John Richardson - the body was obviously not there when he was in the yard - my guess then, is that Chapman was killed not long after Richardson left the yard.

Liz Long - flaky witness at best. She went to the police a number of days after the event, and on what was her recollection based ? A couple of people speaking to each other as she passed them

Albert Cadosch - only aware of the murder after the event, and didn`t investigate the noises he said he heard. So noises could have been somewhere else.
Hi Jon,

your comments on Long and Cadosch are both true, they may well have been mistaken or just made the stories up, who knows?

However I fail to see that there was any reliable medical evidence present to tell Philips that she had not died within the hour.
No temperature was taken, Blood flow had ceased, Rigor is not a good indicator of the time of death.


All the Doctor could do was make an educated guess, however did he have anything in his medical career to compare Chapman too, i seriously doubt that.

In this particular case, the main determining factor for TOD appears to be the "feel" of the body temperture by Philips, that can in no circumstances be seen as in anyway a reliable method.

I have serious isssue with all TOD's which are based on the limited knowledge availble in the LVP.


Steve
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  #834  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:12 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by caz View Post
Actually, Fish, no. This thread is called 'Lechmere was Jack the Ripper' - not 'Richardson may have missed Chapman's body at 4.45am, allowing for Lechmere to have ripped her up on his way to work before 4am'.

In fact, Hanbury Street hardly featured until I posted the following on page 15 - #146:



I presume you would say he 'dared' to do this because he was a psychopath, who couldn't grasp the concept of being caught, even within days of having lied to PC Mizen, lied again at the inquest and having given a surname to the authorities, which none of his associates would recognise him by.

Then, on page 17 - #164, Herlock posted this:



The above triggered a response from you on page 18 - #173, concerning your touching faith in the ability of a Victorian doctor to determine TOD in a case like Chapman's [when it couldn't be done even today], and it all went tits up from there really, whenever anyone has dared to question a single argument or interpretation you favour, which, by amazing coincidence, all help rather than hinder your quest to make a case for Lechmere being Jack the Ripper: Richardson was a crap witness, so we should all shut up and accept that Chapman's body could have been there when he opened the door to the yard; Phillips was 130 years ahead of his time, so we should all shut up and trust his opinion that Chapman was killed early enough for Lechmere to have done it and still got to work on time; and as for who Long and Cadoche saw and heard, they may have had nothing to do with the murder, so we should all shut up and not ask who else they could have been seeing and hearing.

And so on and so on and so on, until the conditions are 100% perfect for Lechmere to enter the frame.

You can squirm all you like, Fish, but we weren't all born yesterday, and it will all happen again like clockwork if someone decides to stroll over to Mitre Square.

Love,

Caz
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I so don't want to ever fall out with you!
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  #835  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:23 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Of all aspects of the case I think that we would all agree that timings are the most troubling due to the fact that very few of those involved would have owned a watch. They relied on things like factory clocks and church bells. Errors were inevitable. So can we construct a possible timeline to allow for Long, Richardson and Cadosch all being ‘correct.’ By using ‘correct’ I mean ‘honest if slightly mistaken.’

Let’s assume that Richardson was correct when he said that he sat on the steps at 4.45 and that he couldn’t possibly have missed a body had it been there.

Long said that she heard the Brewery Clock chime half past the hour allowing her to place her sighting of Annie Chapman at 5.30. What if she was wrong and it was actually 5.15. Not a massive, unbelievable error but possibly an honest error just the same. So let’s postulate that she actually saw Chapman with her killer at 5.15.

Cadosch got up at 5.15 and then went into the yard where he heard the word ‘no.’ So with him having to get dressed this could easily have been 5.20 when he got to his back door. He then returned to the yard a few minutes later when he heard something brush against the fence. This could have 5.23/24 or 25. The gap might been seen as troubling but nothing like prohibitively so. Maybe Annie needed to relieve herself before doing business? Or maybe Chapman was killed at 5.20 and Cadosch heard the killer brushing against the fence at 5.25 as he was finishing off the mutilations. Cadosch then left for work at 5.32 seeing no-one.

So we have:

4.45 - Richardson sits on the steps and sees nothing. He then leaves at 4.50.
5.15 - Long sees Chapman with her killer near to 29, Hanbury Street.
5.20 - Chapman and her killer are at the steps of the yard. Cadosch hears a voice.
5.25 - Cadosch hears something brushing against the fence as the killer positions himself to finish off the mutilations.
5.30 - The killer leaves.
5.32 - Cadosch leaves for work.

Of course this is conjecture but it’s not wild conjecture. It requires the acceptance of the elasticity of timings. And not massive differences in timings either.

The argument that Phillips was absolutely correct in his TOD, despite the multitude of expert opinion as to how this TOD could have been considerably inaccurate, gives us a scenario which means this (if Chapman was dead by 3.30-3.45am):

John Richardson - Liar or idiot.
Elizabeth Long - Liar or 2 hours out in her sighting.
Albert Cadosch - Liar or 2 hours out in his testimony.

Which is the likeliest?
Cadosch's time of 5.32 records when he passed the Spitalfields Church (Christchurch) which is about a two minute walk from 27 Hanbury Street; presumably, if correct, that means he left home about 5.30am - but as ever the timings can only be seen as approximate.
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  #836  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:26 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is online now
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Hi Steve

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
However I fail to see that there was any reliable medical evidence present to tell Philips that she had not died within the hour.
No temperature was taken, Blood flow had ceased, Rigor is not a good indicator of the time of death.
I agree about TOD`s.
However, I will stand by my belief that the doctor would have a pretty good idea that a victim had or had not been killed within the hour.
Dr Brown had to make the same educated guess in Mitre Square, and he estimated Eddowe had been killed within the last 40 mins or so.

Quote:
All the Doctor could do was make an educated guess, however did he have anything in his medical career to compare Chapman too, i seriously doubt that.
As police surgeon for Whitechapel, he would have seen some pretty horrendous things. In fact, I can`t think of an another area in England which would have come anywhere near the viciousness of E1.
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  #837  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:33 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Hi Steve



I agree about TOD`s.
However, I will stand by my belief that the doctor would have a pretty good idea that a victim had or had not been killed within the hour.
Dr Brown had to make the same educated guess in Mitre Square, and he estimated Eddowe had been killed within the last 40 mins or so.



As police surgeon for Whitechapel, he would have seen some pretty horrendous things. In fact, I can`t think of an another area in England which would have come anywhere near the viciousness of E1.
But with Eddowes he didnt have to make a guess, if he knew what time she was released from the police station, and what time she was found

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #838  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:36 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Hi Steve

I agree about TOD`s.
However, I will stand by my belief that the doctor would have a pretty good idea that a victim had or had not been killed within the hour.
Dr Brown had to make the same educated guess in Mitre Square, and he estimated Eddowe had been killed within the last 40 mins or so.


However, one is left to wonder if those estimates were entirely based on medical evidence, or if input from witnesses played any part, in Mitre Square
the evidence of Watkins may well have influenced him, here the time of discovery may have influenced Philips

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
As police surgeon for Whitechapel, he would have seen some pretty horrendous things. In fact, I can`t think of an another area in England which would have come anywhere near the viciousness of E1.
Yes I agree, but had he ever had to attend anything like the murder of Chapman?


Steve
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  #839  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:41 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is online now
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
But with Eddowes he didnt have to make a guess, if he knew what time she was released from the police station, and what time she was found
Doc Brown made his call for TOD whilst with the body in Mitre Sq.

When did the police find out about Eddowes being in the Bishopsgate cell ?
It doesn`t matter what time she was found !!
The body could have been dumped there already dead.
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  #840  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:44 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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HI Gary,

John is i feel over the top in his view.

Lechmere is in my humble opinion a viable person for a suspect.

1.He lived in the area, during the entire period of the murders.
2.He discovered a body, at the very least, a few seconds before Paul also came across it.

However that is a different thing from saying that he is a likely killer. The evidence which would support this view is either incomplete or non existent.

And because of this neither can he be dismissed entirely.



Steve
exactly El. Although I would add he had a discrepancy with Mizen and he used a different name. both of course probably have an innocent explanation, but flags to me that even need to be explained away.

Im also probably a bit sympathetic to the "witness" suspects, as I favor hutch and also think these types need more looking into-like Richardson, bowyer, and possibly Barnett.
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