Mitre Sq., arranged meeting scenarios

[packers stem]

Have you all never wondered WHY she wanted to be released ?
She had no money
Nowhere to go
It was raining
There's only one sensible reason why she would not have just rolled over in that nice ,dry police station and enjoyed a full nights sleep after the exhausting week she had endured .
And that was to meet somebody

[Michael W Richards]

Eddowes wasn't a clockwork toy, so the idea that she should have maintained a regular, inexorable pace on leaving the cells is rather unlikely. Like most of us in her situation, she'd no doubt have paused periodically to take stock of her situation, to decide what she was going to do. She might have wandered aimlessly for a while. She might have gone for a pee in a doorway. As already noted, theres a good chance she'd sought shelter from a shower of rain. All kinds of mundane possibilities might easily account for the "missing" time, without positing anything complicated. Twenty or so minutes is nothing.

Its surprising in the context of what her and Kelly's relationship is portrayed as being Sam. A couple who spent almost every night together, with her off the streets. She heads in what she must have known was the opposite direction of where Kelly would most probably be. And it would seem by his comments that he knew of her arrest. It also seems like Kelly lied about the time of the pawning and that if she met him that morning for tea as he says, then its questionable she stayed where he says she did that night. I believe some morning labor was required for payment of the bed the prior night.

What I'm suggesting is that by the holes in Kellys story that its quite possible that they were not as close as he claimed, which leaves open the possibility of others in Kates life at the time.

The thing that bugs me is that I don't think we have a legitimate sighting of Kate at 1:35, so this missing time on the streets is interesting.

[Sam Flynn]

Have you all never wondered WHY she wanted to be released ?
She had no money
Nowhere to go
It was raining
There's only one sensible reason why she would not have just rolled over in that nice ,dry police station and enjoyed a full nights sleep after the exhausting week she had endured .
And that was to meet somebody

If we know anything about Eddowes' character, she seems to have been something of a force of nature, very much a feisty, free spirit. Although her nickname was "Chick", she doesn't strike me as the type to want to be caged like a bird.

[packers stem]

If we know anything about Eddowes' character, she seems to have been something of a force of nature, very much a feisty, free spirit. Although her nickname was "Chick", she doesn't strike me as the type to want to be caged like a bird.

That really isn't an answer is it ?
She has a bed for the night and gives it up to wander aimlessly in the rain makes more sense to you....... because she's a free spirit ??
Where did that nickname come from ?
She was known as Kate Conway and nothing else .Anything else is the usual press nonsense of needing to give the victims various nicknames .

[Sam Flynn]

Yet not even one PC from the time she left the drunk tank saw her for those 40 minutes.

We're dealing with two moving targets here. For her to be seen by a policeman, he and Eddowes would have had to have been in the same place at the same time, which is by no means guaranteed; in fact, it would be rather unlikely, as even a cursory inspection of the other cases will confirm:

No policeman, or anyone else, reports seeing Tabram between 00:15 and 04:50 (4 hours 35 minutes)
No policeman, or anyone else, reports seeing Nichols between 02:30 and 03:40 (1 hour 10 minutes)
No policeman, or anyone else, reports seeing Chapman between 01:50 and 05:55 (4 hours 5 minutes)
No policeman, or anyone else, reports seeing Stride between 20:00 and 23:00 (3 hours)

Eddowes was unsighted for barely half an hour and, unlike the above, she was in a comparatively quiet part of town. There's nothing mysterious or unusual about this, folks.

[Jon Guy]

Have you all never wondered WHY she wanted to be released ?
She had no money
Nowhere to go
It was raining

There's only one sensible reason why she would not have just rolled over in that nice ,dry police station and enjoyed a full nights sleep after the exhausting week she had endured .

To get hold of some money ?

[Batman]

To get hold of some money ?

Out of all the places she could have done that, she ends up back in the very area dead that she last collapsed in. Literally a 1 - 2 min walk to Aldgate High St., from Mitre Sq., the same direction (sort of) that she was seen heading after leaving the drunk tank (and in the wrong direction of her lodgings).

It makes sense to believe she was heading back to Aldgate of all places for a reason.

Aldgate runs diagonally bottom left to top right. Some of it is above Mitre Sq., and some it is below Mitre Sq. If she was on the top of Aldgate then church passage into Mitre Sq. seems reasonable, but again she is heading away from her lodgings.

If below, then she could have gone in Mitre st., side and going up past the church to go back to her lodgings.

However, I wonder how PC beats work out for that one.

[Sam Flynn]

That really isn't an answer is it ?
She has a bed for the night and gives it up to wander aimlessly in the rain makes more sense to you....... because she's a free spirit ??

That's a more likely explanation than that a drunken jailbird would sober up - and furthermore would be guaranteed a release - just in time to make a prearranged rendezvous with a mystery man who'd planned hours ahead to butcher her in a public place. That kind of stuff only happens in the movies.

Where did that nickname come from ?

It's recorded as a family nickname in Philip Sugden's book. Not that it affects what I said, as I was merely using the "Chick" nickname as a literary device to add colour to my "caged bird" analogy.

She was known as Kate Conway and nothing else

I wouldn't be so sure. At least, she evidently wasn't averse to using alternative names when the need arose.

[Sam Flynn]

It makes sense to believe she was heading back to Aldgate of all places for a reason.

Perhaps because the route was better lit than cutting through the back alleys and side-streets?

If she was on the top of Aldgate then church passage into Mitre Sq. seems reasonable, but again she is heading away from her lodgings.

It seems that she had no lodgings, and there's no hint that she had any money to pay for same.

[Batman]

Perhaps because the route was better lit than cutting through the back alleys and side-streets?
It seems that she had no lodgings, and there's no hint that she had any money to pay for same.

If she never had money how did she get so drunk?

[packers stem]

That's a more likely explanation than that a drunken jailbird would sober up - and furthermore would be guaranteed a release - just in time to make a prearranged rendezvous with a mystery man who'd planned hours ahead to butcher her in a public place. That kind of stuff only happens in the movies.

For that you have to believe that she really was that drunk..... people that drunk do not wake up three hours later and give up a bed to stand in the rain .
Forget movies .... try human nature and common sense .

It's recorded as a family nickname in Philip Sugden's book.

Oh well , that's ok then now we know .
Family oral tradition does well in ripperology lol

She used the name Kate Conway "bought and paid for" according to Wilkinson..... doesn't sound so wild and fancy free there

The other names you refer to were used only on her return from Maidstone that we know of
Jane Kelly and Mary Ann Kelly
Strange that

[Batman]

That's a more likely explanation than that a drunken jailbird would sober up - and furthermore would be guaranteed a release - just in time to make a prearranged rendezvous with a mystery man who'd planned hours ahead to butcher her in a public place. That kind of stuff only happens in the movies.

JtR was always planning to butcher a woman in a public place and likely whenever he spoke to an unfortunate he was thinking nothing else but doing just that while talking about the weather with her with a smile on his face.

JtR had understood Whitechapel. It's society. Police beats. Where unfortunates were. How to get in unnoticed. How to get out unnoticed. How to carry his knife. How to get away with harvested human body parts.

His opportunities were obviously in one of these women coming into his path in one of his pre-planned attack areas of which there would have been many, plenty of which he never used. JtR probably met many unfortunates that he wanted to murder there and then, but couldn't, because the opportunity wasn't there.

JtR was a planner. He was an organized opportunistic offender.

All it would have taken is for him to say something like... "Hey, hold on there Kate, you are really knocking back the drink. I am going to be here all night long until the wee hours. Slow down."

So she knows where he said he would be.

Is that a pre-arranged meeting? No. However, it is a sort of arrangement. She knows where he will be.

So there are dozens of reasons why she may have tried to meet back up in that same place again.

Furthermore, JtR is just someone who is ready to take an opportunity when presented with it. If she doesn't turn up, she doesn't turn up.

If JtR was law enforcement then that would change your barriers to a pre-arranged meeting also. As we know being law enforcement and a serial killer is no longer movie stuff, especially given EARONS turned out to be Law enforcement's Joeseph James DeAngelo racking up a dozen or so homicides, 50+ rapes, 100+ burglaries and that is what we do know about him and he did that in the 70s and 80s in California.

Furthermore, JtR could have just been someone sitting outside waiting for a drunk woman to be released and follow them to murder them. Eddowes could have happened to have been that one. That's not arranged though but just goes to show design in predatory behaviour.

No one is saying that JtR knew she was going to be released at a certain time and place and had planned to murder her at an exact moment in an exact place. More like JtR would murder her if she was in his right moment and his right place. JtR created his own opportunities by planning.

[Sam Flynn]

JtR was always planning to butcher a woman in a public place.

"A woman" is not the same as "a particular woman".

JtR created his own opportunities by planning.

It strikes me as very unlikely that his planning (if there was any) extended to making appointments in advance, and I see no reason to suppose that this was the case.

[Sam Flynn]

If she never had money how did she get so drunk?

Buying alcohol has the habit of making your money disappear.

I was referring to the money she had when she left the police station, not what she might have scraped together to fund her binge.

[Batman]

Buying alcohol has the habit of making your money disappear.

I was referring to the money she had when she left the police station, not what she might have scraped together to fund her binge.

Why can't they be the same place and person she got the money from in the first place?

What is the barrier to this you have constructed exactly?