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new evidence: Ostrog's Banstead admission and release records at the LMA

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  • new evidence: Ostrog's Banstead admission and release records at the LMA

    Hello all,
    I was at the LMA today and I've located Ostrog's admission and release records at Banstead Hospital.
    Pics will follow, I'm about to email what I shot today to Rob Clack so that he can clean it up, reduce it via Photoshop (NOT manipulate it, as implied once by AP Wolf!!), and he'll probably post the pics himself in the next couple days.
    Below a transcription of the records:

    Admission:
    {E-Llma H22/BAN/B/01/012}
    admitted on May 7, 1891 (NOT on May 4th, as claimed by Philip Sugden) under the admission nr. 3.684: Michael Ostrog.
    Age: 58, marital status: not known, previous occupation: not known
    previous place of abode: St. Giles Workhouse, Union/County/Borough to which chargeable: Strand Union {corrected} County of London {added in red ink}
    Sent by whose authority: G. T.{?} Greville on May 4th 1891 {this is possible where from Sugden got his date of admission}
    medical certificate: W.C. Sheard

    Form of mental disorder:
    Has delusions of various kinds and is paralyzed on one side of face; muscular tremor due to sclerosis. Demented, will scarcely answer questions.


    Supposed cause of insanity*: not known
    *{Believe it or not, the majority of the Banstead inhabitants feature “masturbation“ as “cause of insanity“!!!}
    Bodily condition: much impaired

    Date of discharge: {E-Llma H22/BAN/B/03/010}
    May 29, 1893 as recovered.

    I also went through the records of patients seen at their request by the medical Committee at Banstead from 1891-1893 {E-Llma H22/BAN/B/03/062}, but Ostrog is not mentioned.

    I'm still trying to locate the letter written by Macnaghten to the Banstead Superintendant allegedly (according to Sugden) on May 7, 1891, and I might have an idea of where it is, but the records in question cannot become available before October 14, thus it will be necessary that someone else consults them when they become available, as I won't be in London anymore by that date. Unfortunately Sugden has put a footnote on the wrong place (pertaining to p. XVII/p. 479 in his book on JTR), so we might even need to consult him himself pertaining to the Macnaghten letter, to get the correct old reference number of the microfilm in question. The microfilm Sugden mentions in his book {p. 479} pertains NOT to the Macnaghten letter, but to the St. Giles Workshop records.
    Best regards,
    Maria

  • #2
    Hi Maria,

    Compare this thread, from nearly three years ago.

    Why's there a difference in the two transcriptions - yours and Chris's - with yours containing an extra description: "Demented, will scarcely answer questions"?

    Regards,

    Mark

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you so much Mark for directing my attention to this thread from 2008. I wish Rob or someone could have told me that Chris Phillips had gone through these records in 2008 already. What Chris has posted in the old thread from 2008 has its provenance from the exact same document {E-Llma H22/BAN/B/01/012} that I've consulted today, but for some reason Chris left out the “Demented, will scarcely answer questions" part, which is quite important, in my opinion. The pics Rob will hopefully post (as long as I email them to him) will prove the authenticity of the source.
      What I'm implying here is that Macnaghten might have known in May 1891 about Ostrog having been “demented“ and non responsive vs. “a dangerous criminal“, unless Macnaghten suspected that Ostrog was feigning lunacy, as implied in the letter quoted but NOT referenced by Philip Sugden (p. XVIII), which I'm still working on locating (plus, I'm trying to locate the Superintendant's answer to Macnaghten).
      Best regards,
      Maria

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by m_w_r View Post
        Why's there a difference in the two transcriptions - yours and Chris's - with yours containing an extra description: "Demented, will scarcely answer questions"?
        You had me worried for a moment there, but checking a photo of the page that Rob kindly sent me a few months ago I see that phrase actually belongs to the next patient's entry.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mariab View Post
          I wish Rob or someone could have told me that Chris Phillips had gone through these records in 2008 already.
          I think you will find I told you not to bother with the admission records as I have already gone through them.

          Rob

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Chris View Post
            You had me worried for a moment there, but checking a photo of the page that Rob kindly sent me a few months ago I see that phrase actually belongs to the next patient's entry.
            After checking the pic in question on my camera (I haven't downloaded it yet on my comp), Chris is completely right, and the “Demented, will scarcely answer questions" part really belongs to the next patient (the one who spots “masturbation“ as “supposed cause of insanity“ below Ostrog. The other patient's name is “S. L. Smith“ or something, can't read it too well from my camera.
            Endless apologies for the hasty conclusion, my only (very poor) excuse being that a weird guy was sitting next to me at the LMA, making tons of noise and talking to himself while consulting a map, I had to change seats and the librarian had to intervene and scold him. Plus I'm seriously beat.

            A couple of questions:
            - Do you guys wish me (Rob) to post pics of these sources here?
            - Did Chris Phillips try to/managed to locate the Macnagthen letter to the Banstead Superintandant in 2008?
            - As far as I know, Rob was at the LMA last Friday (september 30), but he didn't locate any entries for Ostrog? Or did I get this wrong too? It's getting really complicated, and I'd really wish for more open communication about the data. I'm very grateful for Mark to have corrected me and set things straight.
            Best regards,
            Maria

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello Maria,

              So let me just get this right..
              You have said that you have been tracking Ostrog because you suspected some sort of a mix up involving Macnaghten with Le Grande, to do with records abroad, yet these records in England from 1891 show traits in this man that are similar to Kosminski... not Le Grande...
              Another demented loony that masturbates, involving Macnaghten's attention.

              I have said it before and I will say it again. The MM3 are not getting us anywhere. the more that is found, the more connections made with these three, the more it clouds the issue, it seems to me. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is how it is supposed to be that would lead us to any straight connection between a killer and a suspect.

              Perhaps I am being cynical. I wonder why.

              I wish you luck in finding something that would give us an indication or tell us why Macnaghten suspected Ostrog.


              kindly

              Phil
              Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


              Justice for the 96 = achieved
              Accountability? ....

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                I think you will find I told you not to bother with the admission records as I have already gone through them.
                Yes, but you said you didn't keep the reference numbers and that you didn't find anything, so I had to go through them from scratch. Perhaps the “didn't find anything“ part was a misunderstanding of mine.
                Best regards,
                Maria

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                  So let me just get this right..
                  You have said that you have been tracking Ostrog because you suspected some sort of a mix up involving Macnaghten with Le Grande, to do with records abroad
                  If I might say something “off the record“, at this point I'm even starting to suspect that Macnaghten did the “mixup“ intentionally. Depending on the evidence, I might change my mind about this.

                  Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                  yet these records in England from 1891 show traits in this man that are similar to Kosminski... not Le Grande...
                  Another demented loony that masturbates, involving Macnaghten's attention.
                  The masturbation part pertains to the next patient, not Ostrog. It comes fairly often in the Banstead records, by the way.

                  Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                  I have said it before and I will say it again. The MM3 are not getting us anywhere. {...} Nothing, absolutely nothing, is how it is supposed to be that would lead us to any straight connection between a killer and a suspect.
                  Won't led us to a suspect, but it made lead us to Macnagthen's intentions, or at least to how his brain worked.

                  Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                  I wish you luck in finding something that would give us an indication or tell us why Macnaghten suspected Ostrog.
                  We need to find the Macnaghten letter and the Superintendant's answer, and if necessary contact Sugden, because, I'm sorry to say, his footnotes simply won't do. (Which is fairly typical for the 1980s.)
                  Best regards,
                  Maria

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                    I have said it before and I will say it again. The MM3 are not getting us anywhere. the more that is found, the more connections made with these three, the more it clouds the issue, it seems to me. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is how it is supposed to be that would lead us to any straight connection between a killer and a suspect.
                    What a load of bollocks.

                    Originally posted by mariab View Post
                    Yes, but you said you didn't keep the reference numbers and that you didn't find anything, so I had to go through them from scratch. Perhaps the “didn't find anything“ part was a misunderstanding of mine.
                    I said I didn't have the reference numbers for the items that I had used on Friday but to save you wasting your time I said don't bother with the admission books and the visitors book. As I had gone through them.

                    Rob

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mariab View Post
                      - Did Chris Phillips try to/managed to locate the Macnagthen letter to the Banstead Superintandant in 2008?
                      No he didn't.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ostrog sources at the LMA

                        Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                        I said I didn't have the reference numbers for the items that I had used on Friday but to save you wasting your time I said don't bother with the admission books and the visitors book. As I had gone through them.
                        I know you went though them, Rob, but I went through everything from scratch, as I wasn't sure what you had looked into and what not. It was not too many materials, just 7 different reference numbers/ “dossiers“/ whatever you'd call them from the 1890s. I was done in about 2 hours.
                        Do you want me to email you the pics? (There are just 3.)

                        The only 2 items I didn't look up are the ones that are currently not consultable, but will possible be available after October 14, and someone ought to go consult them, in the off-chance that Macnaghten's letter is in there. I'll give you or Mark or Chris the reference numbers when the LMA emails me about their availability. In the worse case, the LMA promised to have a librarian look in there themselves. Unless, again, Chris or someone else has looked into them already in 2008? Reference nr. H22/BAN/A/01/001 and H22/BAN/A/01/001A.

                        As for the microfilm X/20/65, cited by Sugden on p. 480 of his book, it does NOT pertain to the Macnaghten letter. Sugden put footnote nr. 12 on p. XVIII of his book instead of p. XVII/second paragraph from below, making it appear as if microfilm X/20/65 referred to the Macnaghten letter, while it actually refers to the St. Giles Workshop records, where Ostrog was briefly committed, before he was transfered to Banstead. The microfilm reference today is X113/104 and it's available. I went through it very-very quickly and didn't find Ostrog (the listings are not strictly alphabetical/chronological), but anyone else is strongly adviced to go consult it and knock themselves out. I was more interested in and concentrated on the Macnaghten letter.

                        By the by, I'm about to email Debra Arif and ask her for the data pertaining to Le Grand's Malborough Courts/Guidhall convictions to look them up in the LMA, so if anyone has already researched those at the LMA it would be nice if they came forward. I don't mind the trouble of re-starting from scratch, but I really wish I hadn't put “new evidence“ on the title of this thread! (At least the pics would be new, if Rob posts them, as far as I know...)
                        Best regards,
                        Maria

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mariab:
                          - Did Chris Phillips try to/managed to locate the Macnagthen letter to the Banstead Superintendant in 2008?

                          Originally posted by Chris View Post
                          No he didn't.
                          Does Chris have any idea of where this letter might be today? :-)
                          Best regards,
                          Maria

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mariab View Post
                            Does Chris have any idea of where this letter might be today? :-)
                            My only suggestion previously was the case files, and I believe Rob has checked them.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mariab View Post
                              I know you went though them, Rob, but I went through everything from scratch, as I wasn't sure what you had looked into and what not. It was not too many materials, just 7 different reference numbers/ “dossiers“/ whatever you'd call them from the 1890s. I was done in about 2 hours.
                              Do you want me to email you the pics? (There are just 3.)
                              I already have them.

                              Originally posted by mariab View Post
                              As for the microfilm X/20/65, cited by Sugden on p. 480 of his book, it does NOT pertain to the Macnaghten letter. Sugden put footnote nr. 12 on p. XVIII of his book instead of p. XVII/second paragraph from below, making it appear as if microfilm X/20/65 referred to the Macnaghten letter, while it actually refers to the St. Giles Workshop records, where Ostrog was briefly committed, before he was transfered to Banstead. The microfilm reference today is X113/104 and it's available. I went through it very-very quickly and didn't find Ostrog (the listings are not strictly alphabetical/chronological), but anyone else is strongly adviced to go consult it and knock themselves out. I was more interested in and concentrated on the Macnaghten letter.
                              I think you will find I told you that as well.

                              Rob

                              Comment

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