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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #151  
Old 01-10-2019, 06:57 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Kattrup View Post
Perhaps it’s difficult to answer because you’ve not stated what you consider wounds “above and beyond” what was needed for dismemberment.

I suspect that you, like Fisherman I seem to recall, consider opening the abdomen unnecessary?

Which is untrue. So perhaps there in fact were very few wounds “above and beyond”?
vertical gashes to the abdomen for starters
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  #152  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:06 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
vertical gashes to the abdomen for starters
That only really applies to Pinchin, though; a seemingly pointless vertical gash - singular - which didn't even penetrate the abdominal wall. Where others had sustained vertical gashes, they appeared in conjunction with other vertical/horizontal cuts through the abdominal cavity and/or thorax, and the removal of abdominal and/or thoracic organs (and one baby). These cuts might have been above and beyond what was required for dismemberment, but they were somewhat necessary for the purposes of dividing the bodies or opening a bodily cavity to remove the contents.
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  #153  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:16 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
That only really applies to Pinchin, though; a seemingly pointless vertical gash - singular - which didn't even penetrate the abdominal wall. Where others had sustained vertical gashes, they appeared in conjunction with other vertical/horizontal cuts through the abdominal cavity and/or thorax, and the removal of abdominal and/or thoracic organs (and one baby). These cuts might have been above and beyond what was required for dismemberment, but they were somewhat necessary for the purposes of dividing the bodies or opening a bodily cavity to remove the contents.
Thanks Sam
I think we agree then-that it wasnt neccessary to remove the internal contents to dismember a body and that the torsoman had an interest in doing so that wasnt for practical reasons-just like the ripper then???
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"Is all that we see or seem
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-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #154  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:32 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Thanks Sam
I think we agree then-that it wasnt neccessary to remove the internal contents to dismember a body and that the torsoman had an interest in doing so that wasnt for practical reasons-just like the ripper then???
On the contrary, I think that there are eminently practical reasons for a dismemberer to remove internal organs. If you're going to quarter a body, then you have a choice of leaving the mushy wobbly bits - including vast lengths of intestines - to hang loose, or taking them out to facilitate carrying and disposing of the more solid casing that normally keeps them in. If you're going to remove a foetus to avoid cutting through it, then it's inevitable that the womb comes out with it. If you want a thorax to coast less visibly down a river, then it makes sense to remove nature's flotation chambers, aka the lungs; likewise, if you want an abdomen to coast less visibly downriver, you remove the air-filled stomach and intestines. If you want to store your butchered victim for a while before disposal, it makes sense to take out the delicate viscera, to minimise rot and the tell-tale stench that accompanies it. And so on.
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  #155  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:48 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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On the contrary, I think that there are eminently practical reasons for a dismemberer to remove internal organs. If you're going to quarter a body, then you have a choice of leaving the mushy wobbly bits - including vast lengths of intestines - to hang loose, or taking them out to facilitate carrying and disposing of the more solid casing that normally keeps them in. If you're going to remove a foetus to avoid cutting through it, then it's inevitable that the womb comes out with it. If you want a thorax to coast less visibly down a river, then it makes sense to remove nature's flotation chambers, aka the lungs; likewise, if you want an abdomen to coast less visibly downriver, you remove the air-filled stomach and intestines. If you want to store your butchered victim for a while before disposal, it makes sense to take out the delicate viscera, to minimise rot and the tell-tale stench that accompanies it. And so on.
dam! thought I had ye!

OK thanks for the response, while I don't necessarily agree in this case, I can admit its a possibility!
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #156  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:18 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
dam! thought I had ye!
If it helps, I'm at my most vulnerable around 11:30 pm UK time, after two or three whiskies
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  #157  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:28 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
If it helps, I'm at my most vulnerable around 11:30 pm UK time, after two or three whiskies
Me too!
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #158  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:45 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
They all fit into a pattern, but it is not until you know the pattern that you can see it.
No offense, Fish, but I used to have a roommate in college that used to make similar observations about the cracks in the ceiling after inhaling one or two left-handed cigarettes.
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  #159  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:58 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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This observation is necessarily subjective, but, to me, the ‘essence’ of the Ripper is that he is committing his crimes in public. We can argue whether this was by necessity, I suppose, but I personally don’t think it can be an accident. Anyone this extreme is doing what he sets out to do. It has some meaning for him, in the same way it had meaning for David Berkowitz to shoot couples in public, or the Beltway Snipers to take their ‘campaign’ to the streets of DC, or the various nutters who slice and stab in public, like, for example, Tom Cutbush.

The torso victims, by stark contrast, appear to be the work of some person or persons who are making painstaking efforts to hide their tracks: cutting up and scattering the remains, dumping the body in the river, hiding it at a building site, etc. Except possibly in the case of Pinchin Street (and the body may have been prematurely abandoned for reasons unknown) they don’t want to be found out, and, if possible, they don’t even want the body to be found out. This suggests these are standard ‘domestic’ killings, where there was some traceable link between the victim and whoever dumped her. There also seems to be a clear if somewhat mysterious psychological divide between those who chose to kill in ‘public’ and those who chose to kill in ‘private,’ and we see relatively few examples of those who cross this divide. So, no, Fish, I don’t think the ‘new school of thought’ is winning the day and replacing ‘old thinking.’ I think Scotland Yard had it right 130 years ago when they dismissed the torso victims as attributable to some other hand than the street slasher of East London.

You can argue the details of various incisions until the cows come home, but what you are really up against is the subjective ‘essence’ of two very different psychologies.

Last edited by rjpalmer : 01-10-2019 at 11:00 AM.
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  #160  
Old 01-10-2019, 11:55 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
This observation is necessarily subjective, but, to me, the ‘essence’ of the Ripper is that he is committing his crimes in public. We can argue whether this was by necessity, I suppose, but I personally don’t think it can be an accident. Anyone this extreme is doing what he sets out to do. It has some meaning for him, in the same way it had meaning for David Berkowitz to shoot couples in public, or the Beltway Snipers to take their ‘campaign’ to the streets of DC, or the various nutters who slice and stab in public, like, for example, Tom Cutbush.

The torso victims, by stark contrast, appear to be the work of some person or persons who are making painstaking efforts to hide their tracks: cutting up and scattering the remains, dumping the body in the river, hiding it at a building site, etc. Except possibly in the case of Pinchin Street (and the body may have been prematurely abandoned for reasons unknown) they don’t want to be found out, and, if possible, they don’t even want the body to be found out. This suggests these are standard ‘domestic’ killings, where there was some traceable link between the victim and whoever dumped her. There also seems to be a clear if somewhat mysterious psychological divide between those who chose to kill in ‘public’ and those who chose to kill in ‘private,’ and we see relatively few examples of those who cross this divide. So, no, Fish, I don’t think the ‘new school of thought’ is winning the day and replacing ‘old thinking.’ I think Scotland Yard had it right 130 years ago when they dismissed the torso victims as attributable to some other hand than the street slasher of East London.

You can argue the details of various incisions until the cows come home, but what you are really up against is the subjective ‘essence’ of two very different psychologies.
hi rj
good post and you very well may be right. but to me and others we see a very "public" dumping and displaying of victims in both series.

It dosnt really seem the torsoman was trying to hide the body parts at all(Ill concede possibly hiding the victims ID) but something deeper psychologically going on here--I havnt quite put my finger on it yet-Possibly to shock the public, polluting London with the victims, marking his territory, a big FU to the police-something along those lines.


and the re the "various incisions"-folks can focus on the minute differences until the cows come home but its not going to change the fact that there are many similarities--including others that span the entire two series: like same victimology, same time and place and most important, to me anyway-the same (extremely rare) post mortem mutilation and removal of body parts.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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