Lechmere was Jack the Ripper

[Fisherman]

Of course you will lose interest, we have seen the same stock answer time and again from you when you are presented with facts that blow a hole in your theory.

I am not being disrespectful to the Victorian Doctors. I am simply reminding you and others that the times of death you seek so much to rely on cannot be relied upon as being accurate

The only burning desire I have is to get to the truth, and in doing just that remove Lechmere from being a suspect to which his current suspect status is poorly deserved.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, there may well be a hole - but it is not in my theory.

I note your, ehrm, burning desire. Good luck with your quest for the truth. Donīt forget to bring the tin helmet and the wooden sword.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You seem to forget that Lechmere at this stage would not have had any idea at all that he would end up in a position where he sought out a PC together with Paul.
I accept that he couldn’t have been certain of that Fish, all I’m suggesting is that in those circumstances it would surely have been at least a very possible outcome that Lechmere would have considered. He couldn’t have relied on Paul suggesting that they just walk away.
What he did on the night if he was the killer, was not something that was planned beforehand - indeed, he could not plan beforehand, since things will happen regardless if we plan.
He could not possibly have known that Paul would surface. Once he did, you are suggesting that he should throw the knife over the fence into Browns, or something such. If he could hear Pauls footsteps - why would not Paul hear the loud sound of a metal blade striking cobblestone?
True but he could also have just tucked it underneath Polly’s body. Or even placed it on the ground in the shadows rather than throw it noisily.
And what if Paul was not Paul but a PC?
Ive mentioned this as you know Fish but you felt that he would have recognised that it wasn’t a ‘regulation tread.’ I still feel that under the circumstances he still might have thought that it might have been a Constable. For me this would increase the likelihood of Lechmere wanting to get away and not get detained while the officer finds that Polly was dead and decides to search him.
Such things, you cannot plan. He held on to the knife, and at this stage, he was not aware that he was about to meet Mizen, was he? Maybe he reasoned "Whoever it is, Iīll bluff him, and then we will go our separate ways".
I have suggested before that Lechmere might have said to Paul “to increase our chances of finding a Constable you go that way and I’ll go the other.” This would have given him the chance to deliberately avoid police contact but he didn’t do that.
Then Paul suggests that Lechmere should remain with the body as he fetched a PC.
Agreed Fish, these unknowns could have occurred but they all could have been avoided by fleeing.
New game, new rules. He now needs to get away from the site, and so he says he is late too, and suggests they walk together - being two makes it look less suspicious, and maybe he wanted to find out who Paul was and what he was about.

I think you are forgetting the whole picture and how it is tied to circumstances that Lechmere could not rule over. And yes, I know, you think that he could have avoided that by legging it - but it is stepping into the same trap to suggest it, since he did not know at this stage that running could - and that is only could - have helped him avoid Mizen.
Then again, he could have run into the arms of another PC, as Paul yelled Blue murder.
Surely though if Paul had started yelling any policeman passing Lechmere at the end of Buck’s Row or in the next street wouldn’t have paid much attention to him in the dark.
The suggestions about how he should and would have acted differently will never take flight, Iīm afraid. Never. I am either correct in saying that he chose to stay put and bluff it out, or I am not. Claiming that I am a fool for doing so is really not the way to go about it.
I’m not claiming that you’re a fool Fish. I’m saying that i feel that fleeing would have been overwhelmingly the safer option. Both options involved risk but the risk of staying at the scene, with the knife (and yes, I feel that in the dark Lechmere could not have been absolutely certain that he hadn’t been contaminated by blood)must surely have been greater?
All you can do is to accept that he COULD have done it, and then you must go looking for evidence to the contrary elsewhere. It will save you time, and it will be a better way to do it.
Of course I accept that he could have done it.
Your conviction that he would have thrown the knife away and run is duly noted, but it does nothing more for you than adding a remark to the protocol. What really happened is not goverened by such remarks, however. It was what it was, and all that CAN be proven is that it could have been either way. Meaning that I may be right, and yes - that you may also be right. End of story.

Just to show that I do try and look at it from both sides Fish (and no, I’m not saying that you don’t either) it’s not impossible that Lechmere might have lied about how far away Paul was when he heard his footsteps? I’m unsure of the lighting etc but he could conceivably have heard Paul when he was almost with him. If this was the case then Lechmere by saying that he heard him from 40 yards away or so could have been planting the seed for saying “if I’d murdered her why wouldn’t I have scarpered?” I suppose though that with Lechmere actually standing in the road waiting it does point to the fact that he heard the footsteps earlier?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Memory did not serve you here, Iīm afraid. Phillips saw Chapman at 6.30 and said that she had been dead for AT LEAST two hours, but... probably MORE! That means that he did NOT think that Chapman died at 4.30, he thought that she died BEFORE that time. And then he said that since the morning was cold and the damage extensive, he was able to see his way through to accepting two hours only. But it was NOT the probable thing, it was an extreme possibility.

I would go with what he actually believed - MORE than two hours. If you put it down to around three, you will be on my home turf. I think Chapman met the Ripper at somewhere around 3.30, 3.45, give or take a little something. I also think she was slain as he went to work, meaning that I find that time very logical - it jibes with his morning trek and it is in sync with what Phillips believed.

Now, please donīt go "You are fitting it to suit your theory!". I am NOT fitting it, I am listening to Phillips. I could just as easily say that those who throw Phillips to the wolves or choose to say "Phillips allowed for a TOD around 5.30" are doing their utmost to try and defuse what the doctor really said.

And then we would get into another brawl. If we could avoid that, it would be nice. Phillips DID say at least two hours, but probably more, and that DOES mean that Chapman MAY fit with the Lechmere work trail time. It really is that simple.

Fish, I have no intention of saying that “you are fitting it to suit your theory.”

Doesn’t Richardson’s testimony go against this TOD though? He said that he sat on the step at 4.45 and Annie wasn’t there. Doesn’t this then push it nearer the time when Cadosche first heard noises at the other side of the fence?

[Fisherman]

Just to show that I do try and look at it from both sides Fish (and no, I’m not saying that you don’t either) it’s not impossible that Lechmere might have lied about how far away Paul was when he heard his footsteps? I’m unsure of the lighting etc but he could conceivably have heard Paul when he was almost with him. If this was the case then Lechmere by saying that he heard him from 40 yards away or so could have been planting the seed for saying “if I’d murdered her why wouldn’t I have scarpered?” I suppose though that with Lechmere actually standing in the road waiting it does point to the fact that he heard the footsteps earlier?

Thanks for a measured and well reasoned post. It seems we can only disagee about the fight or fight matter, and thatīs okay.
I think Lechmere heard Paul the second he entered Bucks Row - or even slightly before. Neil heard Thain from 130 yards and Thain wasnīt half running as Paul would have been.

[Fisherman]

Fish, I have no intention of saying that “you are fitting it to suit your theory.”

Doesn’t Richardson’s testimony go against this TOD though? He said that he sat on the step at 4.45 and Annie wasn’t there. Doesn’t this then push it nearer the time when Cadosche first heard noises at the other side of the fence?

Richardson gave different testimony at different times, and that makes him a very shaky witness. And even if he did sit on the step as he said he did at the inquest, he may actually have missed the body anyway. It is possible, given the position of the door. And the police reasoned along the same line; he could have missed Chapman.

Goodnight, Herlock - off to bed now!

[Fisherman]

Thanks for a measured and well reasoned post. It seems we can only disagee about the fight or fight matter, and thatīs okay.
I think Lechmere heard Paul the second he entered Bucks Row - or even slightly before. Neil heard Thain from 130 yards and Thain wasnīt half running as Paul would have been.

Obviously, "fight or fight" should have read "fight or FLIGHT". I am not that opposed to other ideas...

[Harry D]

Richardson gave different testimony at different times, and that makes him a very shaky witness. And even if he did sit on the step as he said he did at the inquest, he may actually have missed the body anyway. It is possible, given the position of the door. And the police reasoned along the same line; he could have missed Chapman.

And he wouldn't have smelt the rotting, gutted corpse a few feet away?

[Herlock Sholmes]

As the door was situated its difficult to see how a body could have been obscured to be honest. Looking at the photograph he’d have had to have sat facing to his right with the door pretty much touching his left leg.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB704GB704&hl=en-GB&biw=1024&bih=1251&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=oyaFW9-BGqSVgAblxLaYCg&q=hanbury+street+yard&oq=hanbury+street+yard&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-img.3..0i8i30.25269.40879..41429...2.0..0.86.1131.19......0....1.......5..0j35i39j0i67.9t1QKX0S3S0#imgrc=NgH4Yz3CnTFvkM:

[Sam Flynn]

A body with its guts pulled out and its legs spread apart would be even more impossible to miss.

[Fisherman]

A body with its guts pulled out and its legs spread apart would be even more impossible to miss.

"Impossible" is a definitive term, Gareth. Nothing is half impossible or ninety per cent impossible. And in the case at hand, we know that Richardson gave different tetimony on different occasions, and we know that the door swung up against where the body would have been, thus obscuring the body to a smaller or lesser degree, if it was there. How small or how large, we donīt know. Where Richardsons focus was, we donīt know either. There are in fact a lot of things we donīt know, and when there is, it is hard to draw conclusions. Very apparently, the police - who were there, whoknew the site, who could sit on the step and check things - allowed for the possibility. Iīm not sure that you are fit to disallow that in retrospect.

[Fisherman]

And he wouldn't have smelt the rotting, gutted corpse a few feet away?

When I walk my dog, he immediately notices other dogs by means of smelling them - if the wind bears down on him from those dogs. When it does not, he misses out, invariably.
We do not know the conditions of the backyard, whether it was smelly otherwise etcetera. But we do know that Richardson had a cold - and such things will affect the sense of smell.
We cannot be sure, Harry. We just canīt.

[Fisherman]

As the door was situated its difficult to see how a body could have been obscured to be honest. Looking at the photograph he’d have had to have sat facing to his right with the door pretty much touching his left leg.

He did say that he was there to look at the padlock on the cellar door. That WAS on his right. And the door swung back on itīs hinges, so it WOULD stop against his left leg.

Those parts are in place, therefore.

[Abby Normal]

Richardson gave different testimony at different times, and that makes him a very shaky witness. And even if he did sit on the step as he said he did at the inquest, he may actually have missed the body anyway. It is possible, given the position of the door. And the police reasoned along the same line; he could have missed Chapman.

Goodnight, Herlock - off to bed now!

Hi all
I think if she was there he would have seen her.
And yes very shaky testimony.

This is another witness that i think needs to be looked at more closely.

Do we know if there was a lamp there? Was he carrying a light? Does it get light at that time of year at that early?

[Herlock Sholmes]

He did say that he was there to look at the padlock on the cellar door. That WAS on his right. And the door swung back on itīs hinges, so it WOULD stop against his left leg.

Those parts are in place, therefore.

But he did say that he checked the padlock and found it ok and then he sat down to fix his shoe. As we see from the photograph the door would stay back (near the fence) on its own. There was also a large gap from the ground to the bottom of the door. It’s surely far more likely that Richardson would have just pushed the door open and it would have stayed open as in the picture. It would have almost been an effort to avoid seeing Annie Chapman if she was there.

Also, if he was repairing his shoe he would have used both hands, probably with his elbows sticking outwards. Why would he therefore have the door touching his left leg as it would have been knocking against his left arm? Again surely he would have pushed it out of the way so that it didn’t impede his efforts?

[FrankO]

I think Lechmere heard Paul the second he entered Bucks Row - or even slightly before. Neil heard Thain from 130 yards and Thain wasnīt half running as Paul would have been.

You never cease to amaze me, Christer, changing your view from "he was in a bubble and didn't hear Paul until he was too close for comfort" to this one.

Do you have an idea of how much time Lechmere approximately had before Paul would arrive at the crime spot if Lechmere heard Paul enter Buck's Row?