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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #1331  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:09 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Who says he needed to store them in the dosshouse, though? Or store them at all, for that matter.
He must have taken them for a reason. He didn’t just lob them over a fence. Surely this hints that he had somewhere more private than a dosshouse?
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  #1332  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:14 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Does anyone feel that the removal of victim’s body parts, and the subsequent need to ‘store’ them counts against the Ripper living in a communal dosshouse?
You'll have to ask Ben. From an earlier post he seems to believe the Ripper burned his incriminating evidence over a cooking stove in a doss house filled with 500 men.

According to Sir Robert Anderson, the police dismissed the common lodging house theory. They concentrated on men with private accomodations or someone protected by his people. Every common lodging house was a crowded nest of potential informers, and the police had plain clothes detectives staying in them. After the Phoenix Park murders in Dublin, Inspector Littlechild himself stayed in common lodging houses for weeks so he could examine the men coming and going. The same would have occurred in 1888. The Kelly murder left no doubt that the murderer would have been bloodstained, yet supposedly Hutch was indoors by 7 a.m. that same morning. Maybe he carried a change of clothes in a trunk on his back during the 12 mile walk from Romford?
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  #1333  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:17 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
He must have taken them for a reason. He didn’t just lob them over a fence.
What if he committed unspeakable acts with the organs in a quiet spot before throwing them into a dark corner, at the mercy of neighbourhood cats, dogs and rats. A piece of fresh meat wouldn't have lasted long on those streets, believe me.
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Surely this hints that he had somewhere more private than a dosshouse?
Even people in doss-houses can find hiding-places to revisit, and not all lodging-houses were as impersonal as others.
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  #1334  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:25 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
The Kelly murder left no doubt that the murderer would have been bloodstained, yet supposedly Hutch was indoors by 7 a.m. that same morning. Maybe he carried a change of clothes in a trunk on his back during the 12 mile walk from Romford?
Funnily enough, I came across this from the Pall Mall Gazette 14 Nov, earlier;

"A paragraph in the morning papers states that the police have received from Mr. Samuel Osborne, wire worker, 20, Garden row, London road, a statement to the effect that he was walking along St. Paul's churchyard yesterday behind a respectably dressed man, when a parcel, wrapped in a newspaper, fell from the man's coat. Osborne told him that he had dropped something; but the man denied that the parcel belonged to him. Osborne picked up the parcel, and found that it contained a knife, having a peculiarly shaped handle and a thick blade, six or seven inches long, with stains upon it resembling blood. The parcel also contained a brown kid glove, smeared with similar stains on both sides. Osborne found a constable, and together they searched for the mysterious individual, but without success. The parcel, says the paragraph, was handed to the City police authorities, "who, however, attach no importance to the matter." What on earth could be more important, after the statement made by the man Hutchinson and quoted above?"

Anyone know if there were any further developments on this find?
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  #1335  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:35 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Originally Posted by harry View Post
Jon,
Where do you get this,' Specific instructions 'from? .It is the judge,representing the court, who decides on what evidence is admitted,and how it is given by the witness.When a witness gives a narrative account, it is usually by request,not by instruction.
It is an instruction to the witness to speak freely and relate how events unfolded, instead of waiting for specific questions.
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  #1336  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:41 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
Let’s put to bed once and for all the erroneous argument made by a couple of posters on this thread that Abberline’s 1903 interview is somehow evidence that Hutchinson was discredited by the police in 1888.

Making this claim over and over in a series of short smug posts does not make it true.

Here is the relevant passage from the rather brief interview Abberline gave about Klosowski/Chapman to the PMG, 24 March 1903, quoted in its entirety:


“the height of the man [Klosowski aka Chapman] and the peaked cap he is said to have worn quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him. All agree, too, that he was a foreign looking man, but that, of course, helped us little in a district so full of foreigners as Whitechapel. One discrepancy only I have noted, and this is that the people who alleged they saw Jack the Ripper at one time or another, state that he was a man a man about thirty-five or forty years of age. They, however, state that they only saw his back, and it easy to misjudge age from a back view.”

That’s it, folks.

Yes, believe it or not, this brief general observation is what supposedly proves that Hutchinson was discredited by the police and dropped like a red-hot penny—even by Abberline himself.

This is also what one poster calls Abberline’s “extensive” interview about witnesses.

No, Abberline does not mention Hutchinson by name. He also doesn’t mention Schwartz, Elizabeth Long, Joseph Lawende or anyone else by name. Does that mean they were similarly discredited?

One poster likes to imply that by mentioning a “peaked cap” Abberline is plumping for Lawende, which (illogically) means that he must be dismissing Hutchinson.

This, I’m afraid, is not only a bad argument but also a complete misunderstanding of the background of the interview. The PMG interviewer states explicitly that Abberline was contacted in response to a story that had appeared the previous day (March 23rd) in the Daily Chronicle. That article stated:

“Moreover he, [Chapman] always carried a black bag and wore a ‘P. and O.’ cap. The man who was ‘wanted’ in connection with the Whitechapel murders always wore a ‘P. and O.’ cap and carried a black bag according to the tale of some of the women who escaped him.”

So, in mentioning the alleged peak cap of the Ripper, Abberline is merely alluding to the ‘P. and O.’ cap mentioned in the previous day’s edition of the Daily Chronicle, as well as depictions of Chapman published at the time of his 1903 trial for poisoning, that portrayed him wearing the peaked naval cap of the employees at the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company.

That’s all it refers to. It is not meant as a ‘dismissal’ of Hutchinson, who is not mentioned one way or the other. Nor is it even an endorsement of Lawende, as it refers to various WOMEN who supposedly saw the Ripper.

Note also that Abberline’s comment that the Ripper’s age was supposedly misjudged because witnesses only saw his back. This is a memory of Elizabeth Long, who described the Ripper as “over forty,” even though she had only seen his back as she passed through Hanbury Street. The Hutchinson theorists like to pretend that this must mean that Hutchinson was discredited, because he saw his suspect straight in the face. But if that were the case, they would have to similarly conclude that the police also dismissed Lawende, because Lawende also saw the Ripper straight in the face. But we know this is not true; Lawende was still being used as a witness well after 1888, ie., in his attempt to identify the suspect William Grainger. He is also one of the main male witnesses to describe the peaked cap alluded to earlier.

So, in other words, it’s another bad argument.

If anything, Abberline’s brief statement is an endorsement of Hutchinson as a witness. “All agree, too, that he was a foreign looking man” Abberline states. This certainly applies to Hutchinson, who was one of the main witnesses to describe the Ripper as a foreigner.

No; only a crazed “Ripperologist” would try to argue that these general remarks quoted by a newspaper man 15 years after the Whitechapel murders in direct response to the Daily Chronicle piece are more valuable than a direct statement by Abberline in an official report filed 12 November, 1888, where he directly states that Hutchinson is to be believed. It is a ridiculous line of reasoning, unworthy of someone using any recognized historical approach.

In other words, the PMG piece in no way is evidence that Hutchinson was discredited.

As late as 1930, Hargrave Lee Adam, describes Hutchinson as a valuable witness. Adam was not a member of the Metropolitan police, but he did know Macnaghten and Anderson, and, if he can be believed, seems to have discussed the Klosowski theory with Abberline. His acceptance of Hutchinson would be strange had any of these men dismissed Hutch as a proven liar. Indeed, one could even argue it is evidence that Abberline still endorsed Hutchinson years later, as Adam directly links Hutchinson’s suspect with Klosowski.

Contemporary image of Klosowski showing the peaked-cap
Hi RJ

Quote:
So, in mentioning the alleged peak cap of the Ripper, Abberline is merely alluding to the ‘P. and O.’ cap mentioned in the previous day’s edition of the Daily Chronicle, as well as depictions of Chapman published at the time of his 1903 trial for poisoning, that portrayed him wearing the peaked naval cap of the employees at the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company.

oh he is ? but not all the witnesses who described a man wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event?

Quote:
it refers to various WOMEN who supposedly saw the Ripper.
right and last time I checked hutch wasn't a man either.


Quote:
Note also that Abberline’s comment that the Ripper’s age was supposedly misjudged because witnesses only saw his back.
but wait! I thought hutch got a great view of his face?


Quote:
If anything, Abberline’s brief statement is an endorsement of Hutchinson as a witness. “All agree, too, that he was a foreign looking man” Abberline states. This certainly applies to Hutchinson, who was one of the main witnesses to describe the Ripper as a foreigner.
no. he said he had jewish appearance. nothing about being a foreigner.


Quote:
“the height of the man [Klosowski aka Chapman] and the peaked cap he is said to have worn quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him. All agree, too, that he was a foreign looking man, but that, of course, helped us little in a district so full of foreigners as Whitechapel. One discrepancy only I have noted, and this is that the people who alleged they saw Jack the Ripper at one time or another, state that he was a man a man about thirty-five or forty years of age. They, however, state that they only saw his back, and it easy to misjudge age from a back view.”
so lets see how Aman tallies up:
peaked cap no. hutch does Not describe a peaked cap.
he was a foreign looking man nope-never says this either.
only saw his back wrong again-hutch got a great view of his face.

Quote:
As late as 1930, Hargrave Lee Adam, describes Hutchinson as a valuable witness. Adam was not a member of the Metropolitan police, but he did know Macnaghten and Anderson, and, if he can be believed, seems to have discussed the Klosowski theory with Abberline. His acceptance of Hutchinson would be strange had any of these men dismissed Hutch as a proven liar. Indeed, one could even argue it is evidence that Abberline still endorsed Hutchinson years later, as Adam directly links Hutchinson’s suspect with Klosowski.
Whos Hargrave Lee Adam? LOL.

and how does "Adam directly links Hutchinson’s suspect with Klosowski" anyway?


so yes lets take some second hand nobody over Abberlines own words that the witnesses suspect he refers to dosnt match up with Aman.

If this is your
Quote:
recognized historical approach
Ill pass.


Not only does abberlines references to the witness descriptions NOT match up with Hutchs Aman, his silence on hutch and his suposedly stellar suspect speaks volumes.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 08-23-2018 at 01:45 PM.
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  #1337  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:47 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Originally Posted by Busy Beaver View Post
I do not think that Hutch or Aman are the Ripper. I am on the same thinking that Hutch made the story of Aman up to sound like a good samaritan. A man who walked 14 miles from Romford is not going to stand around for too long in the cold dark streets of Whitechaple.

So what if Mary did not come out her home on after saying goodnight to Blotchy? Her clothes were neatly placed on a chair and her boots beside the chair in front of the fire. I doubt she would have gone out without any boots or shoes on. Would the Killer having seen the neatly placed clothes on the chair, take of Mary's boots and put them were the Police found them, in order to look like she did not go out? It would have been easy for her just to throw a coat or a shawl over herself if she was only wearing her night clothes/under garments, but as she only seemed to be wearing a chemise when she was found on her bed, I now doubt that she never did go out. So it may mean the Ripper could have been known to her and made his own way into the room, or she was not killed by the Ripper, or thirdly the Ripper was exceptionally bold and walked up the Court and Mary Jane invited him in. Who is to say Blotchy didn't walk into the Ripper and tell him that there's pretty good girl up that court? After all Blotchy had a few and was in good spirits so to speak.
The wearing of the chemise appears to hold some significance for you in deciding whether Kelly returned to the street.

Were you aware that other victims also wore their chemise under their day clothes?
This was not a case of Kelly being dressed in her night clothes for bed. The bed & room were not warm & cosy. Both men and women of her class slept fully clothed.
It is just as likely Kelly undressed to entertain, not to sleep. She was then killed by her client.
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  #1338  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:51 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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"Whos Hargrave Lee Adam?"

A prolific early 20th century true crime writer. He wrote The Trial of George Chapman for the "Notable British Trials" series, published in 1930.
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  #1339  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:54 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
"Whos Hargrave Lee Adam?"

A prolific early 20th century true crime writer. He wrote The Trial of George Chapman for the "Notable British Trials" series, published in 1930.
thanks Sam!
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #1340  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:55 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
The parcel also contained a brown kid glove, smeared with similar stains on both sides. Osborne found a constable, and together they searched for the mysterious individual, but without success. The parcel, says the paragraph, was handed to the City police authorities, "who, however, attach no importance to the matter." What on earth could be more important, after the statement made by the man Hutchinson and quoted above?"
I've often mused about Mr. Osborne. Obviously the City police would have attached GREAT importance to the story and would have investigated it thoroughly. Personally, I think this is precisely why blithe dismissals by the Echo and others about alleged police opinion can't be taken seriously without confirmation in the police files.
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