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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #11  
Old 11-09-2018, 04:04 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
The one thing to keep in mind is the example I provided: If the man from Equatorial Guinea is found alone at the murder site with the freshly killed victim, then how can he NOT be a better suspect than anyone with a home address in the vicinity of the murder, but whose whereabouts at the time of the murder are totally unknown?
Cross's whereabouts are totally unknown for all the other murders.
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  #12  
Old 11-09-2018, 04:19 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Cross's whereabouts are totally unknown for all the other murders.
But NOT for the Bucks Row murder! He was effectively there at the exact time of the murder, and his working route will have been traversing the Spitalfields area inbetween Hanbury Street and Old Montague Street. It is the only logical option unless he was intent on adding a lot of time to his trek.
Similarly, it is logical to suggest that he did this trek Monday-Saturday, the way working people ordinarily did.

Accordingly, he is tied to the Bucks Row murder site and his logical routes and timings are in line with the rest of the Spitalfields murders too.

And that puts him waaaayyyyyyyyy ahead of any random resident of Whitechapel where we can NOT tell where he or she was at the relevant hours, or show any logical reason to have passed by George Yard, 29 Hanbury Street and Dorset Street at the relevant hours, the way we can do for Lechmere.

Can you tell me, Gareth: Why are we even discussing such a self-evident matter?

PS. After having read post 4, who would you say is the most likely killer in that example? You forgot to comment on that, somehow...

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-09-2018 at 04:24 AM.
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  #13  
Old 11-09-2018, 04:24 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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. Conclusion: When we look for the Ripper, any suspect or suggested suspect that cannot be shown to have been at the spots or have had reason to be so is automatically a less good suspect than any other person who CAN be shown to have been at the spots or have had reason to be so, all other parameters unconsidered.
This is arrant nonsense.

1. If, for example, Lechmere can be shown to have walked along Berner Street for some reason at some time near to the murders and yet some other suspect can only be shown to have walked along the adjacent street this would not make Lechmere a better suspect. It would have no effect at all on any judgment.

2. Are we to believe that serial killers only murder on spots that hold significance to them, leaving a convenient clue for investigators?

3. If we talk of Lechmere having ‘reasons’ to be near to the murder sites would this have helped his cause if stopped for questioning at 3am? “Just on the way to Pat my mum a friendly visit officer.”

4. All that can be said is that Lechmere was a local and so would fit the ‘local knowledge’ criteria for being the killer - as far as I know no one has ever denied this obvious fact.
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  #14  
Old 11-09-2018, 04:37 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Herlock Sholmes: This is arrant nonsense.

No, it is not. It is denying the obvious fact that having been placed at a murder site at the relevant hours points more to guilt than having yur residence nearby that is nonsense, and I can easily prove my point.

1. If, for example, Lechmere can be shown to have walked along Berner Street for some reason at some time near to the murders and yet some other suspect can only be shown to have walked along the adjacent street this would not make Lechmere a better suspect. It would have no effect at all on any judgment.

That is wrong, of course. The person placed in the actual murder street will always be a likelier bid than anyone walking adjacent streets. The further away from a murder spot you are, the less likely you are to be the culprit, and that holds true regardless of the distances involved.
Of course, in your example BOTH men can be the killer, no qualms. But stating that distance is not relevant is committing intellectual suicide.

2. Are we to believe that serial killers only murder on spots that hold significance to them, leaving a convenient clue for investigators?

I don´t really care what you believe, but I can assure you that nobody has ever suggested such a thing, making the question totally redundant. What I say is that serial killers will often kill in comfort zones, and since there never was a comfort zone that could not in retrospect be tied to the perpetrator, we can easily see that killers do offer up clues to their geography.

3. If we talk of Lechmere having ‘reasons’ to be near to the murder sites would this have helped his cause if stopped for questioning at 3am? “Just on the way to Pat my mum a friendly visit officer.”

Yes, it would definitively have helped him in that sense. Any person who cannot explain his presence close to a crime site is automatically in a worse situation than any person who can provide such a reason. In the case you propose, rest assured that the police would check out if the information added up. They would check if his mother DID live nearby, and if he had said that she was expecting him, they would try and confirm that too. Frankly, it is kind of baffling if you cannot see how such a basic matter works.

4. All that can be said is that Lechmere was a local and so would fit the ‘local knowledge’ criteria for being the killer - as far as I know no one has ever denied this obvious fact.

All that can be said about a man found alone at a freshly killed victims´ side is that he was a local?

I see.

You don´t. Or is that another one of those insults I repeatedly subject you to? If so, that was not my meaning. I am simply calling things by their correct names, no insult intended.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-09-2018 at 04:40 AM.
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  #15  
Old 11-09-2018, 04:43 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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One would expect attacks around Bethnal Green. North, South, East and West of it.

Not just en route to work.
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  #16  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:32 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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One would expect attacks around Bethnal Green. North, South, East and West of it.

Not just en route to work.
Before looking at any other parameters, yes, you would do that, and soundly so.

But then, when you find out that Lechmere´s whole past and present was to be found in a west-south-westernly direction from 22 Doveton Street, you would immediately realize that he would be likely to move in that direction when going to work and when seeking out old friends and stomping grounds.

And after that, when you notice that if he was the killer, then he killed en route to work, the idea of the victims turning up on that particular route or close to it makes all the sense in the world.

Think about it - if Kelly was killed in Mile End instead of in Spitalfields, at a time when we know that he would have been trekking towards the west and Broad Street, just how much sense would THAT make?

You need to lift you snout from the geographical profiling stuff. Lechmere never was about that. He was always about checking HIS particular geography at around 3-4 AM in the mornings.
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  #17  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:38 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Hi Christer

Okay ..just keep it simple for thickos like me

Bucks Row - yes - we have proof Lechmere was there

I`m struggling with the others
Is there proof or evidence that Lechmere was near the crime scene at the time in question ?

George Yard -
Hanbury Street -
Berner St -
Dorset St -
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  #18  
Old 11-09-2018, 06:01 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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... Mitre Square.
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  #19  
Old 11-09-2018, 06:05 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Hi Christer

Okay ..just keep it simple for thickos like me

Bucks Row - yes - we have proof Lechmere was there

I`m struggling with the others
Is there proof or evidence that Lechmere was near the crime scene at the time in question ?

George Yard -
Hanbury Street -
Berner St -
Dorset St -
Nobody´s calling you a thicko, Jon.

We have proof that Lechmere was found standing alone in the street in close proximity to a freshly killed victim. I am told at times that he was not "found" there, but since he very apparently WAS, I don´t let that influence me.

So! Here we are, we have a carman who without a shadow of a doubt was present at one of the murder sites, at a time that is seemingly consistent with when the victim was killed.

That is evidence enough to make him VERY much a person of interest.

Once we have reached that stage, what we must do is to check whether we have any reason to think that he may have passed the other murder sites too.

If we had not known where he lived and where he worked, he could have been headed just about anywhere after Bucks Row, and so we could only have said that if he ordinarily passed through Bucks Row, then he would ordinarily have been not very far from the other murder sites at that stage.

But it just so happens that we DO know where he worked and where he lived, and once we do, his passage through Bucks Row becomes a very logical one: walking to Broad Street from 22 Doveton Street the quickest route will inevitably involve that passage.

So where does that put us? It puts us in a position where we can see that if he kept to the concept of clearing his work trek as quickly as possible, he will have proceeded along one of two routes: Hanbury Street or Old Montague Street. And indeed, on account of his and Pauls testimony, we know that he chose Hanbury Street on the morning of the 31:st. But we also knbow that he would not have added time to the schedule by choosing Old Montague Street instead. If anything, that route is marginally quicker.

So we can say that if he passed through Spitalfields on the other Spitalfields murder days, then he MAY have walked on the exact streets where two of the murders took place (George Yard was the fewest of yards off Old Montague), he MAY have used Dorset Street as a shortcut, and at any rate, he WILL have passed less than three minutes walk away from each of these sites unless he veered off to the north of Hanbury Street or to the south of Old Montague Street - in which case he would use an illogical route, chronologically - it would be longer, quite simply.

And so we can see, just as I say, that he would have had logical reason to pass each and every one of the four Spitalfields murder sites, and indeed we know that he did so in at least one case.

Berner Street and Mitre Square have other ties to him, and I would say that these ties are much more tenuous than the morning trek ties, which are quite clear and logical, timings included. In Berner Street, we would not be able to say WHY he was there, although we could easily see that he would be in surroundings where he was extremely well aquainted. We would also know that his mother and daughter lived there, providing a very logical reason for him to visit on his night off.
Similarly, we would not be able to tell why he was there at the time registered for the Stride murder, but it makes a lot of sense that this murder is an earlier one than the working day strikes; leaving after a visit or after having pubcrawled with friends is arguably more consistent with a 1 AM timing than with a 4 AM one.

So just as you knew already, Lechmere is not tied to any site but the one in Bucks Row. Then again, being tied to that site at a remove in time that is entirely consistent with the suggestion that he was the killer is something that cannot be lightheartedly dismissed. Certainly, Andy Griffiths said, in a modern day investigation nobody else could be prosecuted as long as he was not cleared. That´s the weight Griffiths awarded the matter.

The fact that the other Ripper murders did not take place in Bow, in Chelsea, in St James´ Park or anywhere else (and the options are innumerable) where Lechmere did NOT do his morning trek, but instead in the exact smallish area where he DID pass through can never be something that should be looked at as a mere triviality. It instead offers a very viable solution to the murder enigma, since it keeps Lechmere firmly in the frame.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-09-2018 at 06:10 AM.
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  #20  
Old 11-09-2018, 06:06 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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... Mitre Square.
...post 4.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-09-2018 at 06:10 AM.
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