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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #141  
Old 10-10-2018, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Don't know what you mean.
The jury's still out on Stride, or mine is anyway. Besides, Berner Street was a bit of a departure, well south of where the previous murders had occurred, so it's by no means certain that extra police had been posted there. The place didn't seem to be crawling with coppers, at any rate.
What I mean is that you have him outside murdering for just two nights in the face of mass surveillance in Whitechapel. Yet we know these offenders stalk. Stalking outside and carrying what he needs to commit a ripper murder, organ harvesting and all. Still avoiding all the different ways they had to catch him set up.

Stride is a canonical JtR victim. Any jury out would be a modern view. If your jury is out, then that's yet another coincidence you hold here. The chances of all those coincidences being right are slim. You might get one, but not all.

If police weren't posted there, then that works just as well for someone with inside knowledge.
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  #142  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:00 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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I'm with Sam. Also factor in the fact that prostitutes tend to do business away from the police in secluded spots.
Another reason to believe that Eddowes was not soliciting .
Had she been a prostitute she would have known full well that Mitre Square was not suitable due to beats
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  #143  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:29 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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What I mean is that you have him outside murdering for just two nights in the face of mass surveillance in Whitechapel.
Ah, I see, but I never said or meant that. I've no doubt he went scouting for victims frequently, but only succeeded on a handful of nights. He could just as easily avoided the police on those unsuccessful nights.

The way you seem to picture it, there was an unavoidable net of police stretched across every thoroughfare in the district from Day One. Well, there was no net, the police were not unavoidable, and it wasn't until the series of murders was practically over that police numbers were boosted to the extent they eventually became.
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Stride is a canonical JtR victim... If your jury is out, then that's yet another coincidence you hold here
So what? It was a rough, overcrowded part of London where violence was common and knives were readily available. Why people get so frothed up about "coincidences" under such circumstances is utterly beyond me.
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  #144  
Old 10-10-2018, 12:38 PM
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Ah, I see, but I never said or meant that. I've no doubt he went scouting for victims frequently, but only succeeded on a handful of nights. He could just as easily avoided the police on those unsuccessful nights.

The way you seem to picture it, there was an unavoidable net of police stretched across every thoroughfare in the district from Day One. Well, there was no net, the police were not unavoidable, and it wasn't until the series of murders was practically over that police numbers were boosted to the extent they eventually became.
So what? It was a rough, overcrowded part of London where violence was common and knives were readily available. Why people get so frothed up about "coincidences" under such circumstances is utterly beyond me.
If you accept he is out and about then your position is that he always easily skipped by every single random checkpoint, stakeout, decoy, bait, beat, plainclothed and civilian lynch mob, including unfortunates out there with a set of lungs should they suspect something. I don't think that was easy especially after Eddowes and near impossible after Kelly (explaining why he had to stop). During Eddowes and Chapman, you had everyone looking out for Leather Apron. However, Eddowes wasn't the start of the whole awareness of murders going on. That goes back to Smith and Tabram when the papers even connected them to Nichols. So it would have been gangs people were worried about followed by Leather Apron followed by JtR.

Multiple coincidences rejecting evidence (for example, rejecting Stride and therefore her witnesses and the anti-semitic content Lipski and rejecting the GSG) is done mostly to make a suspect fit. At the time it is plainly obvious the investigation considered them evidence and followed up on both Lipski and the GSG.
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  #145  
Old 10-10-2018, 12:51 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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The way you seem to picture it, there was an unavoidable net of police stretched across every thoroughfare in the district from Day One. Well, there was no net, the police were not unavoidable, and it wasn't until the series of murders was practically over that police numbers were boosted to the extent they eventually became.
Saves me typing it again.
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  #146  
Old 10-10-2018, 01:19 PM
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The Constables may have adapted their own kit independently. That was, and still is, a common practice.

They also purchased more comfortable kit, in hopes their superiors wouldn’t find out. For example, in the 1970s a lot of beat Bobbies bought Dr Maretens boots, as they were more comfortable that issue. However, due to the image of these boots being connected to far right organisations, the practice was banned. To hide these boots, Bobbies would cut the famous heel tags off, and run over the yellow stitching with black marker pens.

So whilst not standard issue, it wouldn’t surprise me if some constables who suffered with their feet (the most common medical complaint for PCs to report) purchased rubber soled boots. However, I’d say it’s more a comfort thing than stealth.

Monty
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When I joined Nottinghamshire (in 1974) boots weren't issued (officers received a boot allowance instead) and we were required to buy Doc Martens. The yellow stitches were blackened with boot polish. They bulled up well and were far more comfortable than anything the notoriously stingy Stores Department would have issued.
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  #147  
Old 10-10-2018, 01:24 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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[Coroner] From what house did he go ? - I don't know.

[Coroner] Did you hear the door bang after him ? - No.

[Coroner] Then he must have walked up the court and back again? - Yes.

[Coroner] It might have been a policeman ? - It might have been.

So do we have the possibility here of a PC being in Miller's Court at the time of the murder?

Hutchinson claims he never saw a PC in all his time there. Why not? Was it because a PC didn't want to be seen by him and waited for him to leave first?
Or perhaps Hutchinson left before the PC (if it was one) arrived? The witness agreed that the man "must have walked up the court and back again" - no mention of an hour or so between the walking up and the walking back.
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  #148  
Old 10-10-2018, 02:09 PM
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Or perhaps Hutchinson left before the PC (if it was one) arrived? The witness agreed that the man "must have walked up the court and back again" - no mention of an hour or so between the walking up and the walking back.
That is true. That means a PC was within feet of Kelly dead, dying or about to die.
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  #149  
Old 10-10-2018, 05:39 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Or perhaps Hutchinson left before the PC (if it was one) arrived? The witness agreed that the man "must have walked up the court and back again" - no mention of an hour or so between the walking up and the walking back.
The story by Mrs Cox (Batman's quote), took place about 6:15 am, long after Hutchinson left.
If Millers Court was on a beat, and the beats varied between 15 - 30 minutes each, then footsteps must have been heard through the night.
Also, Hutchinson should have seen a beat constable in his 45 minute vigil several times, at least twice, but possibly four times.
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  #150  
Old 10-11-2018, 02:52 AM
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Default Who is L.63?

If Hutchinson never saw a PC for the 45 min he was there, and the PC should have seen him twice, then either Hutchinson is lying... or that PC is now a candidate for murdering MJK when he should have been on the beat.

Problems with this are that officer L.63 looks nothing like Hutchinson's JtR. (L.63 bottom of the first top cartoon, left of JtR's right leg).

However, we don't know that this is how L.63 looked. It could be an artist concept. I can not find mention of his appearance at MJKs inquest hearing.

So here is a hypothesis. L.63 dawned an astrakhan and some plainclothes over his uniform. Went away with MJK. Murdered her. Burnt his astrakhan and some plainclothes in her fire. Walked out in his uniform again.

If L.63 was drafted in specially for this street at this time then I would say L.63 needs to be looked at more closely. The fact we don't know WHO he is, may speak to concerns the investigators had over him, especially since the worst homicide of the series occurred on his beat.
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