Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: Pearly Poll's Husband - by Pcdunn 2 hours ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Joshua Rogan 3 hours ago.
Witnesses: Pearly Poll's Husband - by Paddy 3 hours ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - by MrBarnett 8 hours ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Wickerman 9 hours ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Wickerman 9 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - (22 posts)
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - (12 posts)
Witnesses: What EXACTLY did Maurice Lewis say? - (4 posts)
Casebook Announcements: Casebook Outage May Occur - (2 posts)
Witnesses: Pearly Poll's Husband - (2 posts)
Witnesses: Our Charles Cross - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 10-28-2013, 08:49 AM
HelenaWojtczak HelenaWojtczak is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hastings
Posts: 875
Default

Hi Michael

I can help you with a couple of points here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
One wonders what motive he may have had for killing the women in 1888, since it seems his motives for poisoning were in part at least for personal gain.
Chapman had nothing to gain (i.e. money, property, which is what I think you are suggesting) by killing any of his three poison victims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The Ripper murders are alleged to be committed by someone who had a mental illness of some variety, and that illness allowed or enabled him to do things that were very illegal, and socially and morally repugnant.
Chapman must have had a mental illness. Would you, or any sane individual, be able to kill three people in cold blood, watch them suffering and slowly dying, and remain completely unmoved, unrepentant and feel no guilt, shame, remorse etc? And having done it once, do the same thing to another two innocent women? Where was his normal human conscience and guilt? (My goodness, as a woman of 50 I wept when I had to have my pet rat put down humanely!)

His poison crimes were most certainly illegal, and socially and morally repugnant.

Helena
__________________
Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

Last edited by HelenaWojtczak : 10-28-2013 at 08:52 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-28-2013, 08:59 AM
Nemo Nemo is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Shropshire UK
Posts: 354
Default

Chapman has always seemed cold-hearted to me and fits a stereotypical image I have in mind of a jocular Ripper, particularly with the following anecdote in mind...

"Mrs. Painter visited her friend almost every day during her illness, and was more than once the butt of many a cold joke from George Chapman. On more than one occasion, when she would enter the house and inquire as to Bessie's health, Chapman would reply, "Your friend is dead." Painter would run upstairs, already grieving the loss, only to find her still alive in the bed. When Mrs. Painter visited on the 15th, Chapman told her that Bessie was "much about the same." To her indignation, Mrs. Painter later learned she had died the previous day"

That's quite a cruel type of humour
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-28-2013, 09:04 AM
HelenaWojtczak HelenaWojtczak is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hastings
Posts: 875
Default

Nemo, I'd like to add that when Bessie did die, and Miss Painter called round later that day, and asked how Bessie was, Chapman said she was "much the same" as when Painter had last seen her! This was in the presence of the nurse who had been with Bessie when she died, and it fell to the poor nurse to break the tragic news.

Helena
__________________
Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-28-2013, 09:10 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,904
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HelenaWojtczak View Post
Trevor, it reads as though you think he killed all three women accidentally. Perhaps you could clarify if this is what you are suggesting. I would not want to misunderstand you.

Helena
Clearly he meant to kill them you wouldn't give poison to several people if that was not your ultimate goal.

But the question was did he know how much poison it would take to accomplish that task or did he simply want to make them ill and then have them die thinking that no one would suspect they had been poisoned if they had been under a doctor ?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-28-2013, 09:21 AM
HelenaWojtczak HelenaWojtczak is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hastings
Posts: 875
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
did he know how much poison it would take to accomplish that task or did he simply want to make them ill and then have them die thinking that no one would suspect they had been poisoned if they had been under a doctor ?
Ahhh... thanks for clearing that up! Now I see what you are getting at.

I think he had (a) enough medical knowledge (b) enough medical books and (c) a big poison label with the maximum safe dose warning to know that they would die from the amounts he was administering.

And yes, he definitely seems to have thought that nobody would realise they had been deliberately poisoned. In fact he said when arrested that they could not have been poisoned, cause if they had been they would have died quickly. But he didn't really think that.

Helena
__________________
Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-03-2013, 12:04 PM
Amanda Sumner Amanda Sumner is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 299
Default

I've been reading the posts on here with much interest. I agree that Chapman has a place on the list of suspects, as he has more reason to be on it than some of the others! However, it will be interesting to read Helena's book and learn of her own conclusions. Chapman was, no doubt, a sadist and I agree with Helena that he had the knowledge to know how to administer poison. Personally, I think he had a completely different temperament to Jack the Ripper but who knows? I'm open to any suggestion, but I am looking forward to reading about Chapman himself and about his known life and crimes. I know there have been other books written about him but I am interested in reading from a historian's point of view. I'm also hoping to read what Helena has found out about Maud, Chapman's last victim, because she was an ancestor of mine.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-04-2013, 08:20 AM
HelenaWojtczak HelenaWojtczak is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hastings
Posts: 875
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda Sumner View Post
I'm also hoping to read what Helena has found out about Maud, Chapman's last victim, because she was an ancestor of mine.
Hello Amanda

As Maud had no children, I am guessing you are related to one of her sister's children.

I'm wondering how that feels, knowing that you are related by blood to someone who was killed by someone who has been written and talked about so much, and to someone whose name was in so many newspaper court reports, in books and online, Old Bailey, etc.

I'm in touch with two of Chapman's actual descendants, and they only recently found out they were descended from him, and in the most shocking way. It was only because they became curious about their family history, and found that their dad had changed their Polish surname to an English one about 50 years ago. Researching that Polish name on Ancestry (I think) they were led to Chapman's daughter, Cecilia, who is their grandma. From there the link to and story of Chapman's horrendous crimes unfolded.

They are still in shock.

Helena
PS Thanks for the book order. I have two copies mentally put aside for you!
__________________
Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-07-2013, 07:26 PM
Amanda Sumner Amanda Sumner is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 299
Default

Hello Helena,
Maud was first cousin to my grandmother. Their mothers were sisters.
You ask how it feels to be related by blood, well, I find it an interesting part of my family history. It was weird reading Adam's book on the trial and reading the testimonials of Eliza Marsh and thinking that she was a great,great aunt of mine. I felt empathy and sadness reading about Maud's suffering and quite upsetting as I've got a daughter the same age as she was then. All the women suffered terribly, Chapman was certainly evil.
I don't quite understand his descendants feeling horrified discovering that they were related to him. Descendants can hardly feel guilty about crimes that they were not responsible for, after all, it happened a long time ago. Doing my own family tree I came across quite a few scandals, mainly illegitimacy and one convict that was sent to Australia.
Sadly, it seems that the Marsh's were ostracised from certain members of our family after this particular scandal because Maud had been 'living in sin' and managed to get herself murdered and create a scandalous trial that was well reported at the time. Several generations down the line I just find this all very intriguing and interesting. I'm looking forward to what you have discovered and put in your new book about them all. I read your book recently on 'Women of Victorian Sussex' which is excellent and I found much of it amusing as well as educational. It is very well written, I thought, and I have yet to do a review on it on Amazon.

Amanda

Last edited by Amanda Sumner : 11-07-2013 at 07:40 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-08-2013, 12:10 AM
HelenaWojtczak HelenaWojtczak is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hastings
Posts: 875
Default

Hi Amanda

"Maud was first cousin to my grandmother. Their mothers were sisters."

Ah, so your great-grandmother was Eliza Marsh? I hope I got that right.

"I don't quite understand his descendants feeling horrified discovering that they were related to him."

Perhaps it's the thought that the blood that courses through your body is his blood, and that maybe one has some kind of "murdering trait" in one's DNA? A suspicion that some of that evil has been genetically inherited?

"managed to get herself murdered and create a scandalous trial"

Always blame the woman for what a man did to her? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

"I read your book recently on 'Women of Victorian Sussex'"

Thanks for buying it and for your kind comments. A review is always welcome, of course - have to have one eye on sales

The Chapman books will be with me in a couple of weeks. I just have to "sign off" the proof that is on its way to me right now.

Helena
__________________
Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-08-2013, 12:17 AM
HelenaWojtczak HelenaWojtczak is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hastings
Posts: 875
Default

The printer has produced one proof copy of my book and it's in the post coming to me as I write. Soon as I have checked it, we can go ahead with the whole print run.

The printer snapped a pic of #1 and emailed it to me!

__________________
Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.