An idea about the signs of asphyxia

[Errata]

I am such an irresistible male that women usually suffocate when they see me for the first time, but neither Blotchy nor Sailor Man seem to have been charming as I am, I must say.

are you sure they aren't suffocating because they are choking on their own vomit?

[Errata]

It is actually extremely difficult to break an adults neck with bare hands. Not impossible, but very hard. And in my opinion it probably wouldn't be something a person would rely upon to kill or disable his victims. But like you say it can't be ruled out. If 1 in 20 people today are missed for broken necks, I would guess that it would be like about 1 in 3 or 4 people would have been missed back then. Maybe even 50% would have been missed???

Well, yes. It's difficult. Although I can do it, though I am not especially strong, but my special forces uncle taught me how. I was in a show where I had to have my neck broken by another actor, so he showed me how to really do it so we didn't do it that way. Even so on the third weekend of the run my partner screwed me up pretty badly.

Evidently it is nigh impossible if your victim knows you are trying to do that, because the neck muscles are wicked strong. But if you surprise them it is feasible. In this particular situation, the victim is willingly turning her back to you. But it does seem like there would be a certain failure rate. Although that wouldn't necessarily prevent the eventual death and mutilation. It would if it was a requirement of the killer for his ritual, but he'd still have to dispatch the failed breaks, so you'd expect to see a few women who were just stabbed in the throat or chest or something.

[DVV]

are you sure they aren't suffocating because they are choking on their own vomit?

Yes I am, some having managed to ask my number before fainting.

[RedBundy13]

are you sure they aren't suffocating because they are choking on their own vomit?

Lol, good one!

[IchabodCrane]

An interesting theory is that in those cases where there was no evidence of strangling prior to the cutting of the throat, the ripper could have just held the knife to the victims throat, threatening to cut her throat if she would utter any sound, promising that she would live if she would comply, and then told her to lie down and simply cut the throat. It would explain the absence of evidence of struggle and strangling in some of the cases, although the victims were killed while already lying down & no narcotics were discovered during the post mortems. But I am not sure whether the use of chloroform could have been discovered post mortem. That would be another interesting theory.

[lynn cates]

don't be nervous

Hello Ichabod. That is interesting. But if I'm a knifesman, I should greatly fear lest one become compulsively hysterical given such an order.

Rather a case of, "Now don't be nervous--or I'll have you shot!"

Cheers.
LC

[IchabodCrane]

Yes, she would have been quite scared I believe. But he could have put his hand over her mouth while giving the orders and holding the knife to her throat. If someone points a gun at your temple and tells you to be quiet, more likely than not you would comply. But I think the chloroform theory is also worth getting more facts about from the seasoned ripperologists on this forum.

[lynn cates]

hysterics

Hello Ichabod.

"If someone points a gun at your temple and tells you to be quiet, more likely than not you would comply."

You may be right. And yet a few would go into uncontrollable hysterics--gun or no.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Been there done that...

Chloroform has been discussed and dismissed before IchabodCrane. I don't remember the particulars but it would leave a residue that even the Victorians would have noticed in their autopsies.

Maybe Jtr was ahead of his time and had something similar that left no trace.........?


Greg

[IchabodCrane]

Hi Lynn,
because noticeably in the cases of Stride and Eddowes, there were no signs of strangulation on the throat, and even no fingerprints on the cheeks and jaws (well maybe in Kate's case it was difficult to check on the cheeks after what had happened...), so how do you tell a person to lie down in the mud?
You need some persuasion either in the form of a narcotic chemical substance (which could not be detected by the doctors), or a big knife perhaps..?

[IchabodCrane]

Chloroform has been discussed and dismissed before IchabodCrane. I don't remember the particulars but it would leave a residue that even the Victorians would have noticed in their autopsies.

Maybe Jtr was ahead of his time and had something similar that left no trace.........?


Greg

ok, thanks for that. So we are left with the Big Knife.
Cheers
ichabodcrane

[IchabodCrane]

Hello Ichabod.

"If someone points a gun at your temple and tells you to be quiet, more likely than not you would comply."

You may be right. And yet a few would go into uncontrollable hysterics--gun or no.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn
True.
But they didn't, otherwise the spurts of blood would have been found higher up the walls, for the ripper would then not have hesitated to draw the blade across the throat immediately, risking stains to his clothing.
What may have happened (speculation alert!) is that he found the strangling method employed on Polly and Annie not failsafe enough (we remember Albert Cadosch stating he heard a 'No' from acress the fence), so he tried another method on the night of the double event.
Cheers,
IchabodCrane

[lynn cates]

compare and contrast

Hello Ichabod. I agree about the similarity of Polly and Annie and the dissimilarity to the rest.

Just asking, but why do you think the bloke who killed them also killed Liz and Kate?

Cheers.
LC

[IchabodCrane]

Hi Lynn,
the method of cutting the throats (from left to right, with a strong first cut to sever the left carotid artery), was the same in all 4 cases. And the mutilations got more extensive with each case while retaining the same basic pattern (exempting Stride for the probable reason that the killer was disturbed by an intruder into Dutfield's yard). All this would hint at the killer being the same person, and this view was shared by all police officials involved at the time and most students of Ripper history (with the possible exception of Stride).
I just think that the method to subdue the women to make them lie down on the ground may have differed in the double event compared to the two earlier murders. But I don't doubt that the murderer was the same person in all 4 cases.
Cheers
IchabodCrane

[Errata]

Chloroform has a distinct and persistent order. Sickly sweet, and it hangs around for a couple of hours. Since it was still used as an anesthetic, any medical professional would have immediately recognized it. Same with ether. Thus they were dismissed.

I went prowling through known chemical compounds at the time looking for something similar, but they all had some pretty basic problems. I decided injection was out, since a: no needle marks were found and c: syringes of the time were not subtle, so the odds of hiding it or disguising it as some wayward pinprick are pretty slim. Ingestion I think is also out, since the timing on an ingested substance is so chancy. Could take effect in half an hour, could take four hours. Outside of the known anesthetic inhalants, there are any number of chemicals that were available, but they all seem to have a fatal flaw. They cause burns, or Jack would not be able to protect himself from exposure. Some have to be under pressure, some cause vomiting, some explode when coming in contact with air.

The basic problem with holding someone at knife point and ordering them to lie down is that odds are you can't keep the knife on them when they do that. You can certainly point it at them, but at some point the physical contact with the knife will be broken, unless you are behind them and follow them to the ground and have them lie on top of you. And the victims would have the advantage. They didn't have to escape. They just had to attract attention. It's the drawback of using a knife. From six feet away, a knife might as well be a carrot for all the damage it can cause. Not so with a gun.