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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

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  #4001  
Old 02-25-2017, 11:08 AM
ansonman ansonman is offline
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Ansonman, so far as I am aware, has never subscribed to a rubber suit theory.

Spitfire,

Before the suit is consigned to the bin, many thanks for above. Please accept my apologies for incorrectly attributing the suit creation to your good self.

Regards,

Ansonman
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  #4002  
Old 02-25-2017, 02:34 PM
cobalt cobalt is offline
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As One Round has intimated, it is simply not satisfactory for an appeal court to dismiss Mr. Lee’s evidence as ‘flawed’ on the basis of the mileage readings. These mileage readings are not holy writ; they depend on a number of assumptions, and may be flawed as well.

IF Mr. Lee mentioned a green bobble hat in his original statement on the day of the crime, and IF a green bobble hat was later found in the boot of the car, then I would contend that his evidence outweighs that of the mileage readings.

Were forensic tests carried out on the bobble hat? We would certainly assume so, yet have any results been reported in the last 56 years? Where is the bobble hat? Can it be retrieved so that DNA testing can be done, as was done on the clothing of Miss Storie? Or has it disappeared down the memory hole?

I can see a few reasons for a driver wearing a green bobble hat, and one of them, by the way, is so James Hanratty could disguise his dyed hair. However I suspect this was not the case, for I believe the hat was subjected to forensic testing and like the rest of the car, failed to establish any link between it and James Hanratty. It would be interesting to know what hair follicles were retrieved from the hat.

Apologies ansonman for wrongly attributing a discredited theory to you in an earlier post
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  #4003  
Old 02-26-2017, 02:36 AM
Derrick Derrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
...Were forensic tests carried out on the bobble hat? We would certainly assume so, yet have any results been reported in the last 56 years? Where is the bobble hat? Can it be retrieved so that DNA testing can be done, as was done on the clothing of Miss Storie? Or has it disappeared down the memory hole?...
Hi Cobalt
I do have Lewis Nickolls' bench notes but my papers are still in storage. As soon as I can get them out I will check these out.

I doubt if the bobble hat still exists. I imagine, like the log book, all of the cars contents were returned to the Gregsten family and have, subsequently, been destroyed.

Del
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  #4004  
Old 02-26-2017, 07:15 AM
NickB NickB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick View Post
There was no mention of Cowley serving at all, he might have been around on the Tuesday but I doubt he was behind the counter or in the shop at all for that matter all day, everyone needs a break.
I thought I had seen mention of Mr Cowley's brother somewhere before and (somewhat belatedly) I have found it.

Barbara Ford said: "On the way back from town I called in at the shop about a quarter to five and Mr Cowley's brother was there with Gran."
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  #4005  
Old 02-26-2017, 07:28 AM
Derrick Derrick is offline
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...I have found it...
Hi Nick

Nice one. But from where did you get the source?

Cheers
Del
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  #4006  
Old 02-26-2017, 11:01 AM
NickB NickB is offline
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Woffinden page 162.

Incidentally it has been mentioned on here recently that Woffinden thought the car arrived in the evening. I've just re-read the section on this and he thought it arrived in the morning, even though he knew about the withheld information about the mileage and the sightings. He believed that Skillett etc. saw the car, although obviously he disputes that they correctly identified Hanratty.

Going back to the sweetshop ...
When Acott rejected Swanwick’s suggestion that Hanratty had gone straight from the sweetshop to the cornfield – Swanwick must have accepted this, because when he questioned Hanratty he said specifically that he did not think Jim was in Liverpool on the 22nd. In fact he made the even more bizarre suggestion that he might have been there on the 21st ....

Swanwick: “I think that if by any chance you were in Liverpool before August 24 it was on the 21st and not the 22nd.”

Hanratty: “I was in the Vienna Hotel on the 21st.”

Swanwick: “You were in the Vienna Hotel about five in the evening?”

Hanratty: “No, I would say midnight.”

Swanwick: “There is a 5.15 train from Liverpool which gets in about 9.15?”

Hanratty: “How about Mrs France? I did not leave there until seven o’clock. I thought you had more intelligence.”

(Woff mentioned the tail end of this exchange on page 223.)

Later on in his evidence Hanratty turned to the Judge and said: “Sir, can I put a question?”

Gorman: “I think you should meet the suggestion, but if you want to say something don’t take that as an indication that you should not. You can say just whatever you like.”

Hanratty: “What Mr Swanwick is saying here. It is impossible for me to have carried out this most terrible crime because, as I have stated earlier, yesterday and this morning, I was in Rhyl. I was in Liverpool. I only hope that Mrs Dinwoodie will come here and prove her evidence.”
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  #4007  
Old 02-26-2017, 01:01 PM
Graham Graham is offline
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Hi Nick,,

Quote:
Incidentally it has been mentioned on here recently that Woffinden thought the car arrived in the evening. I've just re-read the section on this and he thought it arrived in the morning, even though he knew about the withheld information about the mileage and the sightings. He believed that Skillett etc. saw the car, although obviously he disputes that they correctly identified Hanratty.
However: Woffinden, Paperback Edition, 1999:

As a result of the CCRC's investigation, it now seems that the car was not, after all, parked at Avondale Crescent, east London, during the day. It was probably not left there until the early evening, shortly before Mr Madwar noticed it and reported it to the police at about 6.45pm. There appear to have been three areas of evidence which led the CCRC to this conclusion; i) statements from those who saw the Morris Minor elsewhere in the country; ii) statements from witnesses in the vicinity of Avondale Crescent; iii) the overall mileage of the car.

I guess all of these 'areas of evidence' can be, and have been, questioned. However, as I have said previously, I would honestly doubt that if the car was abandoned in Avondale in the early morning, it would have gone un-noticed all day until Mr Madwar spotted it.

Graham
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  #4008  
Old 02-26-2017, 01:33 PM
OneRound OneRound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
Hi Nick,,



However: Woffinden, Paperback Edition, 1999:

As a result of the CCRC's investigation, it now seems that the car was not, after all, parked at Avondale Crescent, east London, during the day. It was probably not left there until the early evening, shortly before Mr Madwar noticed it and reported it to the police at about 6.45pm. There appear to have been three areas of evidence which led the CCRC to this conclusion; i) statements from those who saw the Morris Minor elsewhere in the country; ii) statements from witnesses in the vicinity of Avondale Crescent; iii) the overall mileage of the car.

I guess all of these 'areas of evidence' can be, and have been, questioned. However, as I have said previously, I would honestly doubt that if the car was abandoned in Avondale in the early morning, it would have gone un-noticed all day until Mr Madwar spotted it.

Graham
Hi Graham - further to your post above and some of my recent ones, do you have any views on how likely it would have been for Avondale to be on a bobby's beat in 1961? I'm not expecting (even) you to know with any certainty but you do regularly display a good awareness of how things were back then.

Many thanks,

OneRound
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  #4009  
Old 02-26-2017, 01:48 PM
NickB NickB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
[i]As a result of the CCRC's investigation, it now seems that the car was not, after all, parked at Avondale Crescent, east London, during the day.
Thanks Graham. I thought he might have changed his mind somewhat, which is why I put what he said in the past tense.

-----

Something else I saw in the Telegraph was the full exchange on the “I am not a murderer” comment. I don’t think the last line would have gone down well with the property-owning jury ...

Swanwick: “Did you have any feelings towards the householders who returned home to find their premises broken into and their goods missing?”

Hanratty: “I must put this quite clearly. I ain’t a man of good character, but I am not a murderer and this is a murder trial not a housebreaking trial.”

Swanwick: “Will you answer my question? What were your feelings towards the householders whose houses you broke into?”

Hanratty: “No feelings whatsoever.”

-----

Woffinden’s suggestion that Swanwick said the cartridge cases were left in the Vienna because Hanratty was doing some target practicing is a bit wide of the mark.
What he said was:

“If he did intend genuinely to go to Liverpool, why did he change his mind and go to the Vienna Hotel on the night of the 21st, instead of spending the night with the Frances or with Louise Anderson? If he was the person who left the cartridges at the Vienna Hotel and left them there on that night of August 21, would that not suggest that his visit to the Vienna Hotel might be connected with the recent acquisition of a gun? Whether he got it on that day or the day before, might he not well have gone to the Vienna Hotel to play with the new toy, its mechanisms, its working?”

On Mrs Jones:

“You see Mrs Jones, I suppose, is in appearance what the average landlady would be – middle aged, about 50, average build. But Mrs Jones had explained that she wore glasses for reading and television, she would never wear them when she was serving breakfast. Would you describe her as having greying hair? It was blonde, blonde as they come.”
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  #4010  
Old 02-26-2017, 02:03 PM
Graham Graham is offline
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Hi OR,

I'm not a Londoner, but I did visit London quite a lot in the early 1960's. I really can't say if Avondale had a regular 'bobby in the beat', but can only add that where I lived (in the Midlands) we did around that time see the occasional PC Plod doing the rounds. As Avondale was very close to a tube station, I would suggest that it was busy in terms both of pedestrians and parked cars.

One thing that has always bothered me a little is that Hanratty was West London, yet the Morris was abandoned much further east. I wonder why? Was there a genuine reason for this - did he get lost, or what? If - a big 'IF' - he retraced his route back down the A6 then that would have taken him into West London. So why abandon the car where it was found? Did he know people in this part of London? Or - pure speculation here - did he get someone else to dump the car for him?

Graham
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