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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > General Suspect Discussion

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  #321  
Old 06-03-2018, 03:23 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Hi Gareth,
The route turns south at Spelman, and that assumes the entrance in in Eldon street.
If of course any of the other proposed entrances was possible everything changes.
Indeed, Steve, but whatever the true route(s), we have to believe that he had the good fortune to happen upon suitable victims as he passed along these side-streets, as opposed to the more major thoroughfares where unfortunates or beggars tend to hang out for obvious reasons. This is particularly puzzling in the case of the small and decidedly obscure Bucks Row; what on earth would Polly Nichols have been doing there at that time of the morning?
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  #322  
Old 06-03-2018, 03:35 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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. Progress! So now, geography is "of course" important! It is not irrelevant! Hoorah! Yu are no longer ignorant about that part, Herlock - congratulations!

Then you move on to say that it is however of no importance if we know that a killer may have had reason to pass a murder site, if others could also have had reason to do so, and you thereby bog yourself back down in the ignorance swamp again.
Let´s put it as simple as possible: It does not matter how many other people could have had access to a murder site, and it does not matter how tenuous a connection a man may have with a murder site - it nevertheless is important to a case when it can be shown that he DOES have some sort of connection! If it can be shown that the suspect lives nearby a murder site, the importance is VERY large (even if others live in the same street), and if we only know that he used to have his hair cut close by a murder spot, then that too is of interest, because it tells us that the area is not unknown to the suspect - he has a history involving a connection to the spot.
In our case, you claimed that it is irrelevant that Lechmere had grown up in houses surrounding the murder spot and that he had his mother living a stones throw away, together with his own daughter. That means that he knew the area very well and had all the reason in the world to visit it on a regular basis. To call that irrelevant is not a useful thing to do, Herlock!!! Until you understand and recognise that, we cannot have a useful debate.
I am all for recognising that other people also had reason to visit the spot, but that does not mean that the connection on the suspects (Lechmeres) part goes away, does it?
You are getting there, Herlock. Just take the last step and you will be there.
I have to point out that i never made the blanket statement that geography was unimportant as you have stated. Just not on your micro-basis.

How much would it raise a suspects likelihood of guilt if we could move from a) he could have been in the area, to b) he might have had a reason to be in the area?

Walking through Whitechapel in the wee small hours, probably contaminated with blood, probably carrying a knife, how much help to the killer would have been the phrase ‘im going to visit my mum?’

I just cannot see how these ‘connections’ can point us to an increased likelihood of CL being at the murder sites. That it could show that he was familiar with the area is as far as it goes but that was never in doubt as far as im concerned.
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  #323  
Old 06-03-2018, 03:38 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Indeed, Steve, but whatever the true route(s), we have to believe that he had the good fortune to happen upon suitable victims as he passed along these side-streets, as opposed to the more major thoroughfares where unfortunates or beggars tend to hang out for obvious reasons. This is particularly puzzling in the case of the small and decidedly obscure Bucks Row; what on earth would Polly Nichols have been doing there at that time of the morning?
Women looking for business in the Whitechapel Road presumably took their customers somewhere a bit more discreet to conclude the transaction.
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  #324  
Old 06-03-2018, 03:41 AM
Robert Robert is offline
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Hi Gary

It isn't a question of where Crossmere got the money from to start a business. It may have been from his mum - though she doesn't seem to have left a will - or it may, for all I know, have been the result of prolonged thieving from Pickfords. My point is, that he does seem to have worked regularly and stuck with his family. I mean, all those kids - not very easy on a chap's nerves.
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  #325  
Old 06-03-2018, 03:42 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Indeed, Steve, but whatever the true route(s), we have to believe that he had the good fortune to happen upon suitable victims as he passed along these side-streets, as opposed to the more major thoroughfares where unfortunates or beggars tend to hang out for obvious reasons. This is particularly puzzling in the case of the small and decidedly obscure Bucks Row; what on earth would Polly Nichols have been doing there at that time of the morning?
A good point.

One that ive made before is that if CL left home at 3.30 and had to be at work by 4 do we think that 30 minutes would be sufficient time for a killer to allow himself to - find a victim - find a spot - commit the murder - check himself over for blood - head off to work. If CL was guilty he couldnt have relied on the ‘good fortune’ of bumping into Polly without having to deviate from his route to work. If its suggested that he met her elsewhere why would he then bring her back to a spot that he (and very, very few others) passed 6 days a week at pretty much exactly the same time?

Its always seemed tight to say the least to me.
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Last edited by Herlock Sholmes : 06-03-2018 at 03:46 AM.
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  #326  
Old 06-03-2018, 04:34 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I'm not saying he lied about his workplace.

Hat, Fish.
Then you agree that he worked at Broad Street, Robert. Thank you for that! Or are we assuming that he, eh, misremembered it?
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  #327  
Old 06-03-2018, 04:36 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
So, Hanbury St might not have been on his usual route to work?
Obviously, he had more choices that Hanbury Street. That does not make it an unusual route, however, it only tells us that there were options, based on the Hanbury Street route with different deviations and the Old Montague ditto.

This has all been discussed ad infinitum before, by the way.
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  #328  
Old 06-03-2018, 04:38 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Oh dear Christer, that statement is wrong i am afraid.

There are two routes to Eldon street via Old Montague:
These are 2808 & 2964 yards approx.

The two routes (there are more) viaSpelman are 2806 and 2698 yards.

Geographical facts.

Steve
Quickest, Steve, That was what I said. And I know that Edward has timed it, whereupon it was evident that the Old Montague route was the quickest one.

So instead of being wrong, I am actually quite the opposite: correct.

And in the end, it matters very little since the REAL point I am making about these two routes is that they were approxiately equally long, meaning that he could have used BOTH without any substantial delays.
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  #329  
Old 06-03-2018, 04:41 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Well Fish, I pointed out that Crossmere raised countless children by keeping a steady job for a number of years, and you told me that we have no evidence that he wasn't a vicious wife-beater.
Yes. Is there? Is raising kids evidence that you are not violent?

Peter Kurten treated his wife like a queen, whereas he killed other women.

NO!!! THAT cannot be true, can it?

Do we know that Charles raised the kids? Do we know that he was a father who was present at all times, and took part in the upbringing?

Is it possible that a father can be a bad father?

Surely not...?
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  #330  
Old 06-03-2018, 04:42 AM
Robert Robert is offline
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Fish, of course I agree that he worked at Pickfords. Crossmere himself said so and the police almost certainly checked it.

BTW you're the one who keeps talking about his route (singular noun) to work.
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