Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Sam Flynn 46 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Ben 2 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature? - by Michael W Richards 2 hours ago.
Maybrick, James: One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary - by Simon Wood 15 hours ago.
Maybrick, James: One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary - by Scott Nelson 15 hours ago.
Witnesses: Sarah and Maurice Lewis - by Paddy 16 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (8 posts)
Maybrick, James: One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary - (8 posts)
Witnesses: Sarah and Maurice Lewis - (6 posts)
Maybrick, James: And This Is Factual! - (4 posts)
Maybrick, James: New Thoughts On The “diary” - (2 posts)
Maybrick, James: Acquiring a Life - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Scene of the Crimes

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-18-2009, 07:27 PM
Frank Frank is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 83
Default What is a carman?

Hello,

can anyone explain to me what exactly a carman is. I cannot find this word in my edition of the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. An online dictionary gives the explanations 'trolley car-man' and 'railways man' but I am not sure if that is what Charles Cross or Robert Paul were doing.

Thank you for your help,
Frank
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-18-2009, 07:35 PM
Premium Member
The Grave Maurice The Grave Maurice is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 1,674
Default

A carman was a guy who drove a wagon used to transport goods.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-18-2009, 08:20 PM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grave Maurice View Post
A carman was a guy who drove a wagon used to transport goods.
We are of course talking in this period about wagons pulled by horses and you might find the following information useful:

"Can and van horses

"Cart horses were used in many trades-railways, breweries, distillers, millers, vestries, carriers and coal merchants being among the most prominent. These heavier horses used were largely Clydesdales and Shires. Lighter horses were used for parcels work by the Post Office, shops (Whiteley's had seventy), the railways and carriers. But the bulk of such horses were used by a whole multitude of businesses. Many of their drivers probably described themselves in their census returns as milkmen or bakers, so the numbers recorded in the censuses as 'carmen' and carters provide no useful clues.

"Many of these horses were jobbed, even down to the butcher's cart and pony, and much of the work was done by contractors. Pickford's and Chaplin & Home, who were the two big 'wharfingers' and railway carriers, worked as agents for a number of railways, especially until the mid-1870s."

From Ralph Turvey, "Horse traction in Victorian London," Journal of Transport History, September 2005.

Chris
__________________
Christopher T. George
Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-19-2009, 11:28 AM
Bob Hinton Bob Hinton is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 654
Default Car man

Since Cross worked for Pickfords, the removal company, he would probably have driven a huge wagon called a van. This was the Victorian answer to today's articulated lorries. They moved at a top speed of 3 miles an hour and ironically killed more people than any other vehicle on the road at the time.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-19-2009, 11:45 AM
Nothing to see Nothing to see is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 338
Default

OK. Let me ask a question. Why are so many men who found Jack's victims or were questioned etc referred to as carman (I know carmen plural). Was this the growth industry in Whitechapel 1888?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-19-2009, 01:39 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,267
Default

I don't think it was a "growth industry" as such. Carmen would have been important to local economies before, and long after 1888. In the 1881 Census, across the whole of London, there were over 29,000 men who gave "carman" as their job - it was a rather common occupation, and they were by no means confined to Whitechapel.

A Government survey of 1887 showed that a carman in the Whitechapel district would earn 22 shillings a week on average, of which an average of 4s 7d would be spent on rent. 38% of East End carmen had experienced at least one period of unemployment during the past year, but this was rather good going for that part of of the world at that time. For example, Whitechapel's labourers, costermongers, seamen and dockers - of which there were plenty - had enjoyed far less luck, employment-wise, during the same period.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-19-2009, 01:56 PM
Nothing to see Nothing to see is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 338
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I don't think it was a "growth industry" as such. Carmen would have been important to local economies before, and long after 1888. In the 1881 Census, across the whole of London, there were over 29,000 men who gave "carman" as their job - it was a rather common occupation, and they were by no means confined to Whitechapel.

A Government survey of 1887 showed that a carman in the Whitechapel district would earn 22 shillings a week on average, of which an average of 4s 7d would be spent on rent. 38% of East End carmen had experienced at least one period of unemployment during the past year, but this was rather good going for that part of of the world at that time. For example, Whitechapel's labourers, costermongers, seamen and dockers - of which there were plenty - had enjoyed far less luck, employment-wise, during the same period.
Thanks for that info. Can I posit a very tentative idea about Jack . The early murders, and although I've argued against Tabram and I don't think I'm wrong, but for this I'll include her. Tabram, Nicholls, Chapman (not found by carmen but they were on the scene quickly). Reasonably early morning to daylight.

Stride (yes, I count her), Eddowes, Kelly. Very early in the morning.

I just find the carmen on the scene in the earlier murders v none in the latter
interesting.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-19-2009, 02:11 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,267
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing to see View Post
Tabram, Nicholls, Chapman (not found by carmen but they were on the scene quickly). Reasonably early morning to daylight.
Chapman's body was, in fact, found by a carman - John Davies - as he prepared to go to work.
Quote:
I just find the carmen on the scene in the earlier murders v none in the latter interesting.
The thing about carmen was that they would have tended to be up and about early anyway, and most would have been in bed around the 1-2AM slot during which Stride and Eddowes' bodies were discovered, so I wouldn't read too much into it.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-03-2018, 07:02 PM
C. F. Leon C. F. Leon is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 137
Default

Think of it as a Victorian term for "truck driver". My question: Was there a practical difference between "carman" and "carter"? The feeling that I get is that those calling themselves "carters" usually had those hand-drawn carts, but those are often used by "hawkers" also.

- CFL
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-03-2018, 07:10 PM
sdreid sdreid is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: McWopetaz Metroplex, Illinois U. S. of A.
Posts: 4,957
Default

Yes at the time, a wagon driver for goods transportation (as best I can find).
__________________
This my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

Stan Reid
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.