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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > Anderson, Sir Robert

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  #11  
Old 08-29-2010, 06:55 PM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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Quote:
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It's interesting that in an article published in the Sunday Chronicle of 15 October 1905, based on an interview with "a well-known Scotland Yard detective" (or "official"), the Camp murder is also coupled with the Whitechapel murders....)

[i]"The murder of Miss Camp on the London and South-Western Railway has been recalled by the most recent railway tragedy. In that case there was no conviction; not even an arrest.
The reference is the murder of Mary Sophia Money in the Merstham Tunnel in September 1905. It was never officially solved, though the behavior of her brother Robert Money leading to bigamy, mass murder and sucide in 1910 suggests he might have been responsible, but was not adequately looked at by the authorities in 1905.

At one point (while reading about Ms Camp) I considered that since she was a barmaid, and died in 1897, her killer might have been pub owner George Chapman (not using his normal poisoning methods). But why would he have wandered about with a heavy pestle in his pocket? Just on the chance he could use in on woman in trains?

Jeff
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  #12  
Old 09-09-2010, 09:42 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Another reference to a suspect in the 'South Western Railway murder case of 1897,' most likely Arthur Marshall, appeared in Sir Robert Anderson's 1904 book Pseudo-criticism, or, The higher criticism and its counterfeit - Page 15

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  #13  
Old 09-10-2010, 10:44 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Clearly Macnaghten and Anderson have two different versions of events.

Macnaghten writes that the false moustache was bought a few days before the murder, that identification of the suspect had entirely failed and
he also confuses the two separate suspects.

Anderson's argument seems to be that the suspect was singled out from 12 others in an identity parade but the witness wavered in his identification because the man was clean shaven, whereas the man seen in the Alma had a thick moustache. This could be rectified by police evidence that the suspect had purchased a false moustache shortly before the murder.

So, if I am understanding Anderson's version correctly, if the prime suspect had been arrested and gone on trial and prosecution tried to disprove this alibi it would have rendered the identification useless as the identification rested on the suspect purchasing and wearing a false moustache when he committed the murder? And that's why there was no arrest or trial?
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  #14  
Old 09-11-2010, 09:26 PM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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Hi Debra,

As I see it, the Anderson explanation is that the "fake mustache" alibi would have not been needed because of the issue of the distance between the barber shop and the railway station was too far to make the train (at least this is how I read it). The problem with this kind of evidence is it is after the fact and it is also totally vague. Anderson does not give the precise distance, how far the suspect would have had to walk, the time he bought the false mustache and the time the train left (the latter is actually easy to find out from other sources). It also does not take into account if the suspect took a hansom cab to the station or ran or walked. Typical Anderson to me - he is so sure of his own opinion he doesn't realize how feeble his facts really are when presented. The kindest thing to say is that Anderson actually had better information in the file on the Camp case than he presented in the article

Jeff
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  #15  
Old 09-11-2010, 09:58 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Yes, it's frustrating that none of the actual details of the alibi are explained and no reason is given on why at least an attempt on disproving the alibi could not be made.
I still get the impression that they needed Marshall to have been at the shop as the ID would not stand up otherwise. For police, Marshall had to have bought a false moustache as the Alma public house witness who vaguely recognised him was only doubtful because he was clean shaven at the ID.
For police to prove he wasn't at the shop at the time he said he was and witnesses saw him, to fit in with him catching the train, would mean that the evidence of him buying a false moustache would have to be dropped, and then the ID fails too, as he needed to have been wearing a fake moustache.
...my head's spinning now!

The main thing I found interesting is that both Macnaghten and Anderson's accounts of the same story are similar in that they both seemed to be saying the murderer was known to police but not arrested or convicted. Macnaghten's account is somewhat different to Anderson's though, he seems to remember the details differently, eg. the day the moustache was bought. He also obviously mixes up two different suspects in his account too and finishes the tale with the suspect ending up in an asylum shortly after the murder.

Anderson is also sure the murderer was known to police but says he probably escaped the gallows on a point of law.
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Old 09-11-2010, 10:26 PM
Chris Chris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
The main thing I found interesting is that both Macnaghten and Anderson's accounts of the same story are similar in that they both seemed to be saying the murderer was known to police but not arrested or convicted. Macnaghten's account is somewhat different to Anderson's though, he seems to remember the details differently, eg. the day the moustache was bought. He also obviously mixes up two different suspects in his account too and finishes the tale with the suspect ending up in an asylum shortly after the murder.
It's certainly difficult to make sense of the details, but perhaps in general terms there's a useful lesson there about the need to treat police officers' memoirs with caution - especially when they are claiming to have moral certainty about the culprit of an unsolved crime...
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  #17  
Old 09-12-2010, 01:53 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
It's certainly difficult to make sense of the details, but perhaps in general terms there's a useful lesson there about the need to treat police officers' memoirs with caution - especially when they are claiming to have moral certainty about the culprit of an unsolved crime...
Definitely.

There's a detailed account of the questioning and identification of Marshall at the inquest in the The Standard of Wednesday, April 07, 1897

The two witnesses who identified Marshall as the man entering their Guilford barbers shop, looking for a false moustache, which they didn't sell (Marshall later admitted buying one in another shop) don't give the specific date, other than saying it was a Thursday in February.The murder date was Thursday 11th Feb.
At least two witnesses were taken by detectives to identify Marshall in Reading where he lived. One of these was a cabman who identified Marshall as being the man in the Alma, but subsequently changed his mind.
One witness mentions the fact that the suspicious man he saw in the Alma had a real moustache, not a fake.

This was Arthurs Marshall's own account of his movements on 11th Feb. The Guilford barber shop witnesses seemingly confirming his account of being in Guilford.

Trewman's Exeter Flying Post or Plymouth and Cornish Advertiser

"Arthur Marshall was called and explained his movements. he said he had never kept company with a woman in London. When he left home on Feb 11th his idea was to enlist. He went from Reading to Hurst and from Hurst to Wokingham. From Wokingham he went to Guilford. He got a sixpenny moustache there. He could give no reason for this. He walked to a wayside station and went to West Croydon, where he arrived between eight and nine. Shown a portrait of Miss Camp he said he had never seen her in his life. From West Croydon he went to New Cross and passed the night there. he had never ridden second class in his life."
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  #18  
Old 09-12-2010, 11:26 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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After reading several more accounts in 'The Standard' newspaper it looks like, factually at least, Anderson was spot on with his summary of the case against Marshall in his book Pseudo-criticism, or, The higher criticism and its counterfeit- 1904.
There was a very strong chain of circumstancial evidence against Marshall, he was identified to some extent by witnesses and the case could not proceed further because Marshall did have an alibi that placed him in Guilford about an hour before the murder was committed.
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  #19  
Old 09-12-2010, 12:00 PM
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...Guildford even.
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  #20  
Old 10-03-2010, 08:40 PM
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I thought it might be interesting to try to identify the "eccentric barrister" who was suspected of having murdered Elizabeth Camp, according to Lionel Weatherly.

To recap, Weatherly said that about a year after the murder (which took place in February 1897) he was asked by a friend, a Bristol estate agent who was the honorary secretary of the dogs' home, to take as a patient a man to whom he had been appointed receiver. This was an eccentric barrister on the Western Circuit, who Weatherly did not believe had ever had a brief, but whose father was a judge and had written a book on torts. The patient asked if he could have two little dogs, which he had previously taken to the dogs' home. Weatherly said that he later found out that this took place at midday on the day of the murder, and that the patient had afterwards visited a friend, an old sergeant at Horfield, with whom he stayed the night before leaving for London. Weatherly mentioned that the patient had lived at Clapham. He remained in the asylum for "some few years," then recovered, was discharged and married, dying some years afterwards.

The estate agent who was the honorary secretary of Bristol Dogs' Home is easy to identify from online sources. Edward Thomas Parker was born at Crossley Farm in Winterbourne in 1855, established a firm of chartered surveyors in Broad Street in 1879, was the first secretary and treasurer of the Bristol Home for Lost and Starving Dogs, founded in Waterloo Street, St Philips in 1887, and died at Bristol in 1935. He remained honorary secretary of the dogs' home until at least 1900 [Bristol Mercury and Daily Post, 24 May 1900].
http://www.bristoldogsandcatshome.or...and_cats_home/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brizzle...ed/3281843334/
http://www.frenchaymuseumarchives.co...der_Houses.rtf

As for the identity of the patient, strangely enough, at the date of the 1901 census, Weatherly's institution, Bailbrook Asylum, near Bath, housed not one but two patients who were barristers. They were identified only by their initials, and the details given are in the first and last entries shown below:

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(1) F.T.S.

I could find no entry in the register of patients in Provincial licensed houses for 1880-1900 (MH 94/11) corresponding to the second patient. He may have been a voluntary patient; in the final column of the census return is written "Epileptic Tendency" rather than, as for nearly all the other patients, "Lunatic."

However, the Law List of 1903 lists only one barrister with the initials F.T.S. - a Frederick Thomas Saunders of Lincoln's Inn, who was called to the bar on 25 April 1877.

I wasn't able to find this man in either the 1901 census or the 1891 census, but in 1881 (as Fredrick T. Saunders) he was a boarder at Greenbridge Inn, Eglws Cumin [Eglwyscummin], Narberth (Pembrokeshire), described as a "Barrister (Not in Practice)". His age is given as 27, and his birthplace as Brompton, Middlesex, in agreement with the details in the 1901 census return for Bailbrook Asylum (Brompton being an area of Kensington).

In 1861 (as Fred Thomas Saunders, aged 7, b. London) he was in the household of his father, Thomas Bush Saunders, Barrister in Practice, at 31 Thurloe Square, Kensington. His birth on 6 May 1853 at Thurloe-square was announced in the Times of 9 May. (His father was the same Mr Saunders who conducted an unofficial inquiry into the Constance Kent case, which rapidly descended into farce.)

The death of Thomas Bush Saunders on 11 August 1894, at The Priory, Bradford, Wiltshire, was announced in the Times of 14 August. He was described as "M.A. Oxon, J. P. for the county of Wilts." In 1911 Frederick Thomas Saunders was living in the household of his sister, Emily Maria Collett, at The Priory, Bradford-on-Avon, and the death of Frederick T. Saunders, aged 61, was registered at Bradford-on-Avon in the first quarter of 1915.

Was Saunders the patient referred to in Weatherly's account? It appears not. He was not on the Western Circuit (according to either the 1903 Law List or Joseph Foster's "Men-at-the_Bar" (1885)), his father was only a J.P., not a judge, and doesn't appear to have written any books. There seems to be no connection with Bristol. And, whereas Weatherly said his patient was discharged, married and some years afterwards died, Saunders was still unmarried in 1911, four years before his death.

(2) C.A.P.

MH 94/11 does record the other barrister who was at Bailbrook Asylum in 1901. He was Charles A. Prideaux, and was admitted on 20 February 1899 and discharged on 9 July 1901 (not improved).

Charles Augustin Prideaux was born in 1855 in Marylebone, the son (later described as the only child) of Charles Grevile (or Greville) Prideaux and his wife Catharine Ann (nee Ruddock). Charles Prideaux senior had been born in Bristol and would in 1879 be appointed Recorder of Bristol and judge of the Bristol Tolzey and Pie Poudre Courts (Foster, p. 377).

In 1861 the younger Charles was living with his mother at 2 Titchfield Terrace, Marylebone. In 1871 he was at boarding school in Baker Street, Enfield. He was admitted a student of the Middle Temple on 23 January 1877 (Foster, p. 377) and a year later he was reported to have passed a satisfactory examination in Roman law only [The Law Times, 26 January 1878]. In December 1878 he (as Mr Augustin Prideaux) was one of those who entertained the tenth annual dinner of the Sylvan Debating Club, of which his father was president, with "an admirable selection of vocal pieces" [The Era, 15 Dec 1878]. On 26 January 1880 he was called to the bar (Foster, p. 377). In 1881 he was living with his parents at 31 Portland Terrace (Holland Lodge), Marylebone.

By 1885 he was a member of the Western Circuit, and his address was given as 31 Portland Terrace and 1 New Court, Temple (Foster, p. 377). But the only references I've found to him in the 1880s relate to literary, rather than forensic, activities. On 23 April 1885 he (as Augustin Prideaux) attended a "festival" of the Urban Club held in honour of Shakespeare's birthday at Anderton's Hotel, Fleet Street [The Era, 2 May 1885]. And in May 1888 Animal World published a long letter written by him, entitled 'Man and beast hereafter,' arguing that animals possess immortal souls. In this letter he described three men as his friends - the Rev. Vitruvius Partridge Wyatt [1846-1937], of St Saviour's in Bristol, Alexander Heriot Mackonochie [1825-1887, a prominent Anglo-Catholic priest] and John Templeton Lucas [1836-1880, an artist and writer]. Prideaux's letter was reprinted with his permission in 'Thoughts regarding the future state of animals' by the Rev. J. Frewen Moor (presumably in the first edition of 1893; the second edition, edited by Edith Carrington (1899) is available at Google Books - http://books.google.com/books?id=KHoTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA63).

His mother died on 3 September 1890 [Times, 3 Sep 1900], and at the date of the 1891 census he was a visitor in the household of Bridget M. F. Corley at 351 Clapham Rd, Lambeth.

On 2 September 1891 he married Helen (sometimes called Helen Cardozo), daughter of the late Philip Vincent, surgeon, of Camborne, at Much Hadham, Hertfordshire [Royal Cornwall Gazette, 10 Sept 1891].

On 18 June 1892 his father died at Holland Lodge, Regent's Park [Times, 20 June 1892]. His estate was worth 9,685, but he left his son only 1,000 absolutely, with the residue after some other legacies left in trust for his benefit [Morning Post, 24 October 1892].

In 1898 his wife petitioned for divorce [National Archives, J 77/632/19302]. Her death was registered at Penzance in the second quarter of 1899, within months of his admission to Bailbrook Asylum; consequently Prideaux was stated to be a widower in the 1901 census return.

After his time in the asylum (20 February1899 -9 July 1901) he married, at Fulham, in the second quarter of 1902, Jessie Teresa Hay. He lived at 74 Stamford Brook Road, Hammersmith, between at least 1904 and 1919 [Post Office London County Suburbs Directories]. At the date of the 1911 census he was living there with his wife and her sister Elizabeth. There are some indications in the census return that his behavour at this time was still eccentric. The writing is almost illegible, but his place of birth appears to be given as Constantinople rather than Marylebone. He also appears to have acquired an additional middle name, Treverbyn (presumably to commemorate the marriage of Sir Roger de Prideaux and Elizabeth Treverbyn in the 14th century).

The death of his second wife Jessie was registered in the first quarter of 1928 at Hammersmith. The death of Charles A. Prideaux was registered in the first quarter of 1930 at Camberwell.

Clearly, Prideaux is a much better fit for the patient in Weatherly's account. He was a member of the Western Circuit whose father was a judge who had published a book (albeit not on torts but on the duties of churchwardens). His family was closely connected with Bristol. He had strong and eccentric opinions about animals. He married soon after being discharged from the asylum, and was dead by the time Weatherly published his story. We don't know where he was living at the time of the Camp murder (directories give his address as "1 Cloisters, Temple E.C.," but he surely lived elsewhere), but he was last recorded six years earlier - albeit only as a "visitor" - at 351 Clapham Road, close to the boundary between Clapham and Lambeth. There are some discrepancies - he was admitted to the asylum two years, not one year, after the murder, and remained there only two years - but they are relatively minor by comparison.

We can only guess at why Charles Augustin Prideaux was suspected by the police of being Elizabeth Camp's murderer, but at any rate Lionel Weatherly was convinced that his amateur detective work had succeeded in establishing a cast-iron alibi for him.
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