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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > General Police Discussion

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  #11  
Old 04-24-2014, 09:25 AM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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Scotland Yard presented a more disciplined demeanor because they interacted with the Home Office more frequently than the City Force.
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  #12  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:04 AM
Abberline43519 Abberline43519 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Nelson View Post
because they interacted with the Home Office more frequently than the City Force.
Obviously! If you have look at the Watch Committee minutes for a small Borough Police you can see dismissals for minor offences.
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  #13  
Old 04-24-2014, 01:36 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Both were covered by their relevant police acts, which were similar, so the foundation was there.

The impression I get is each disciplinary case was viewed individually. Take the Watkins incident I posted, his reprimand is pretty lax however it was his first offence, so a chance seems to be given.

DC New, H division CID man who, during the midst of 1888, was removed to uniform for assaulting a woman, that was a good reason for dismissal also.

Yet he remained.

You make a good point Colin.

Monty
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  #14  
Old 04-25-2014, 05:46 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
DC New, H division CID man who, during the midst of 1888, was removed to uniform for assaulting a woman, that was a good reason for dismissal also.

Yet he remained.

Monty
This approach by C.I.D. always irked me. They selected from the uniform pool yet, when they made a bad choice, were able to return the reject to uniform. Personally I think they should always have been made to stick with their choices; it might make them select with greater care.

For anyone who doesn't know (not Neil!) the designation 'Detective' before an officer's rank does not (despite what is suggested by the Casebook rank structure!) indicate promotion. Aspiring detectives receive specialist training for the role and there is a perception (particularly among C.I.D. officers) of higher status. The ranks, however, are the same.
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  #15  
Old 04-25-2014, 03:30 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
This approach by C.I.D. always irked me. They selected from the uniform pool yet, when they made a bad choice, were able to return the reject to uniform. Personally I think they should always have been made to stick with their choices; it might make them select with greater care.

For anyone who doesn't know (not Neil!) the designation 'Detective' before an officer's rank does not (despite what is suggested by the Casebook rank structure!) indicate promotion. Aspiring detectives receive specialist training for the role and there is a perception (particularly among C.I.D. officers) of higher status. The ranks, however, are the same.
I've always understood it to refer to their role (job, work?), not rank.
A detective department was a separate & secret entity back in the early 1800's. If I recall, it was due to an assassination?, or some such event, that it was decided to augment the police department with a unit who's sole purpose was to 'detect', in order to prevent crime, as opposed to 'policing' the city. Wasn't this the raw beginnings of the CID?
I'm going from memory here...
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  #16  
Old 04-27-2014, 04:39 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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Yes Colin,

The perception is that CID, amongst many CID officers mainly, that they had a superior quality of men compared to uniform, which is completely misleading and incorrect.


Jon,

CID was born out of the detective department, which was re-structured after the trial of the detectives in 1878. The detective department was officially formed in 1842, before that detectives from Bow Street were used as the Mets detective force but they stopped around, from memory, 1838 or 39, with regular uniform constables donning plain clothes and undertaking the role on a monthly rota.

However, Mayne was already toying with the idea of a specialist detective force since he was appointed joint commissioner in 1829. His working partner, Rowan, wasn't so keen, but recognising the current system was not impacting upon crime, came to agree with Mayne, this after the Daniel Good case (I think this is the incident you are referring to) where this murderer went on the run and it took the police many weeks to run him to ground.

So Mayne and Rowan wrote to their boss, the Home Secretary requesting the formation of a detective team, and this was granted.

Monty
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  #17  
Old 04-27-2014, 06:39 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Thankyou Neil.
I had learned that the first group of 'tecs' gathered together by Mayne were working in violation of the law of the land. It not being legal, at the time, to investigate 'people'. This was before the department was officially set up, it was in effect working in secret until the law was changed.
If I recall, there was actually a documentary on this, The Secrets of Scotland Yard, or something similar.

P.S.
This must be it..
http://www.pbs.org/program/secrets-scotland-yard/
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Last edited by Wickerman : 04-27-2014 at 06:45 AM. Reason: Add video link.
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  #18  
Old 04-27-2014, 01:46 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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That's right Jon,

Mayne and Rowan used the Good case as a reason to justify their existance but yes, they kept on an unofficial team made up of former Bow Street Detectives, based on a list kept by Mayne.

Monty
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  #19  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:13 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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I was just browsing the LMA, and found a document (a reference?) stating that Watkins was in the Metropolitan police for six months before resigning and joining the City of London police.

https://search.lma.gov.uk/SCRIPTS/MW...0.9477%2C0.717
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