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  • Prater/Lewis/Hutchinson/Cox

    These are the four witnesses to Kelly's evening and night before she was killed. I thought it might be an idea to look at their testimony together to see what corroborates and what contradicts. Courtesy of Chris Scott, we have inquest transcript, and maybe Stewart can give us the actual witness statements...

    Cox:

    I live at the last house at the top of the court - Miller's Court. I am a widow and get a living on the streets. I've been unfortunate. On Thursday night, at 11.45, I last saw the deceased. She was very intoxicated. There was short, stout man, shabbily dressed, with her, who had a pot of ale in his hand. He had a round, black billycock hat and a full carrotty moustache. The chin was bare. I followed them up the court, and said, "Good night, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door. He had nothing but a quart can of beer in his hand. She said, "Good night. I'm going to have a song." Then the door was shut, and she sang "The violet I plucked from my mother's grave when a boy." I remained a quarter of an hour in my room. She was singing all the time. I went out, returned about one o'clock, and she was singing then. I went into my room to warm my hands a bit. It was raining hard then. I went out again, and returned at 3.10 a.m. Then the light was out, and there was no noise. I went in, but could not sleep and did not go to bed. I can't sleep when I owe anything. When the murder was discovered I had not had a wink of sleep. I had no sleep at all that day. There are men who go to work in Spitalfields Market, and who leave early. Once such man lives in the court now. I heard a man go out at 6.15. He might have gone out and come back again, for all I know. It might have been a policeman. The man who was with Kelly when I saw them was short and stout. All his clothes were dark. He appeared to be between 35 and 26. I did not notice the colour of his trousers. All his clothes were dark. The man looked very shabby; but his boots made no noise whatever in going into the court. The deceased had no hat on. I did not notice that the deceased was the worse drink until I said "Good night" to her. She scarcely had time to say "Good night," as the man shut the door.
    By a juror - There was a light in the room, but I could not see anything, as the blind was down.
    The Foreman - Should you know the man again if you saw him?
    Witness - Oh, yes, I should.
    By the Coroner - I feel certain that of there had been a cry of "Murder" in the deceased's room after three o'clock in the morning, I should have heard it. There was not the least sign of any noise whatever. I have often seen the deceased the worse for drink.

    Prater:

    I was deserted by my husband five years ago. I live at No. 20 in Miller's Court. On Thursday I went out of the court about five, and I returned close upon one on Friday morning. I stood at the corner of the court waiting for a young man. I never saw my young man. I went into my room and lay down. I went into M'Carthy's shop.
    The Coroner - Was it open at 1 a.m.?
    Witness - Yes, sir, and sometimes later. I told him to say to my young man that I had gone to my room. From where I was I could see if a light was in the room of the deceased. I have only spoken to her once or twice. I lay down on the bed at 1.30 in my clothes. I fell asleep directly, because I had been having something to drink, and slept soundly. I had a little black kitten which used to come on to my neck. It woke me up from 3.30 to 4 by coming on to my face, and I gave it a blow and knocked it off. The lights were out in the lodging house. The cat went on to the floor, and that moment I heard, "Oh! Murder!" I was then turning round on my bed. The voice was a faintish one, as though some one had woke up with a nightmare. Such a cry is not unusual, and I did not take any particular notice. I did not hear the cry a second time. I did not hear any bed or table being pulled about. I went to sleep and was awakened about five o'clock. I woke myself. I was not awakened by any noise. I went downstairs and saw some men harnessing their horses. I walked out, and went into the Ten Bells public house, where I had some rum. The last witness (Mary Ann Cox) could have come down the court and gone out, but I did not see her. I saw no one particular at the Ten Bells. I was there at a quarter to six, and shortly afterwards I returned home again, and went to bed and slept till eleven o'clock on Friday morning. When I went home first at half past one, there was no singing going on in the deceased's room. If there had been, I should have heard it.

    Lews:

    I know Mrs. Keyler, in Miller's Court, and saw her on Friday morning about 2.30 a.m. This I noticed by Spitalfields Church clock. In Dorset Street I saw a man with a wideawake on, stopping on the opposite side of the pavement. The man was alone, and was not talking to anybody. He was not tall, and a "stout" looking man. He had dark clothes on. A young man went along with a young woman, who was drunk. The man I noticed was looking up the court, as though he was waiting for some one. I stopped at Keyler's that night. I had had a few words at home. The court was quiet. I sat in a chair, and fell asleep. I woke up at 3.30 as the clock "went." I sat awake until nearly five. A little before four I heard a female shouting "Murder" once. It was loud, and there was only one shout. The cry was from where the shop is. There was no repetition. It was a young woman's voice. I took no notice. I was not alarmed. I left the house at half past five in the afternoon. I could not get out sooner, because the police would not let us leave. On Wednesday night I was going with a friend along the Bethnal Green Road at eight o'clock in the evening, when a gentleman passed us, and he followed us back again. He wanted us to follow him. He said he didn't mind which of us. He went away, and came back to us, and said if we went along a certain entry he would treat us. He put down his bag - his black, shiny bag - and said to my friend, "Are you frightened? I've got something in my bag." Then he began feeling about his clothes, and we ran away. He was a short, palefaced man, with a black moustache. The man appeared to be about forty. His bag was not very large - about six to nine inches long. The hat he wore was a round one, rather high - a stiff felt hat. He had a long overcoat on, and a short black one underneath. His trousers were dark. On the night of the murder, I saw him again in Commercial Street. I cannot tell you where he went when we left him. We did not look behind us. On Friday morning, about half past two, on my way to Miller's Court, I met the same man, who was accompanied by a female. They were in Commercial Street, near the Britannia public house. He was wearing the same clothes, with the exception of the overcoat. He had the black bag with him. They were standing talking together. I passed on, but looked back at him. I went on my way. I did not tell a policeman, as I did not pass one on my way. I saw the man talking to the woman at the corner of Dorset Street, and left them there.
    The Coroner - Should you know the man if you saw him again?
    Witness - I should.

    Hutchinson is on the pdf file in the witnesses section. I don't think I can reproduce that here. In brief he says he saw Kelly at roughly 2.00 am in the vicinity of Commercial Road and Dorset St. She approached him and asked for money. when he rebuffed her she moved away and encountered another man. She took this man back to her room in Millers Court. Hutchinson claims to have followed them, taken a long look at the man in question and stood outside Millers Court for around 3/4 of an hour during which no one came out. He then left.

    If Kelly was singing at 1.00 am, she had shut up by 1.30 when Prater turns in. However Prater says she went into see McCarthy before she went to bed. She testifies that she arrived back to Millers Court at around 1.00 am and stands outside for a while. I'm assuming she's out there for 20 minutes and then goes to McCarthy's shop. Which is very close to Kelly's room. I doubt the soundproofing was wonderful in that area so if Kelly was still singing at 1.20 or so, Prater and McCarthy would have heard it. No one sees Kelly at this time. If Kelly had left her room between 1.05 or so, when Cox hears her singing, and 1.20 or so, when Prater goes into McCarthy's store, Prater would have seen her come out. She's standing right at the entrance to the court. Kelly is not heard from again. So either Kelly goes out after Prater visits McCarthy and then goes to bed, or Kelly is already dead.

    Hutchinson sees Kelly in the area at 2.00 am. If his evidence stands, then she leaves Millers Court after 1.20. Maybe she gets her fish supper then. He sees her go up the court with a trick, but no one else hears her come in. (And I'll bet that the bang that Cox heard earlier was the door of Kelly's room hitting the chair that was placed by the bedstead. The coroner hit this as he entered the room with the jury.) Hutchinson doesn't say he saw anyone else around, but maybe he just wasn't asked. Because...

    ...Lewis comes into the court at 2.30 am. She sees a man standing on Dorset St across from the court and looking up the court as if waiting for someone. Hutchinson does not mention seeing her. However Lewis describes seeing a man she had previously met and been frightened by conversing with a woman at the corner of Dorset St as she goes into the court. Hutchinson doesn't mention seeing this either.

    So here is what we have: Kelly goes into the court with a customer at 11.45 pm. She makes no attempt to be quiet. Her door bangs and then she starts singing. She doesn't stop singing for over an hour, so she's loud well into the small hours. And then nothing. If she leaves her room, she tiptoes out. If she comes back with a trick, she tiptoes in. And doesn't sing, talk or make any kind of noise at all.

  • #2
    And then nothing. If she leaves her room, she tiptoes out. If she comes back with a trick, she tiptoes in. And doesn't sing, talk or make any kind of noise at all
    Exactly, Chava.

    And I find that weird.

    Unless she didn't go out again afterwards, in which case it isn't so weird as we're left with a sleeping Kelly, rather than a loud, singing Kelly who mutates into a non-singing, hush-hush, tip-toeing Kelly

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ben View Post
      Unless she didn't go out again afterwards, in which case it isn't so weird as we're left with a sleeping Kelly, rather than a loud, singing Kelly who mutates into a non-singing, hush-hush, tip-toeing Kelly
      As an actor, Ben, I'd have thought you'd be used to adjusting your spiel to suit your audience. Unless you're suggesting that Kelly was the famous "Can Belto Whore of Dorset Street", aka "Decibella" to her friends.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • #4
        As an actor, Ben, I'd have thought you'd be used to adjusting your spiel to suit your audience.
        Can't envisage too much variety in Kelly's audience, though, Gareth. The next client was more likely than not to be just as shabby and unremarkable as the previous one. Audience reactions are unexpected though, I'll grant ye. We never expected our "aga saga" Joanna Trollope comedy to get more laughs in Darlington than it did in Richmond and Cheltenham, but it happened that way! My current job is very deadpan, though, so I'm hoping it tickles the funnybone of both the Blotchy and Astrakhan extremes of the viewing public.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Chava,

          I think you touched on something important there...Marys demeanor when arriving and in her room, no effort is made to enter quietly...so why would her exit be silent? Its also that these witnesses at some time were both outside the court, and inside the court, after Mary had gone inside with BFM. We not only have to have silence...but also then a few missed opportunities to see her coming out if she left before say... 2:00am.

          The only accurate statement that can be made of Mary Jane's room that night by witness accounts, is that she went in at 11:45pm on the 8th, and sang off and on until shortly before 1:30am on the 9th. And no noise or light was heard or seen coming from her room after that hour.

          Sometimes the answer is almost too obvious to be plausible for many.....but the simplest explanation for the above is she went to bed, or to sleep, or both...before 1:30am.

          If the cry heard "as from the court" at approx 3:45am was not from Mary Jane...she might have been dead. But I see no reason to doubt it did come from #13. In fact it makes sense.

          Best regards.

          Comment


          • #6
            See, that's what I think. She was sleeping. However she was killed lying on her right side very close to the partition which means there would have been room for someone lying beside her. Just that I don't see that being a trick because where does she meet him? Prater is standing right outside the court until around 1.20 and then talks to McCarthy for around 10 minutes before she goes to bed. Kelly could have sidled out but why did she need to? She was singing her head off not half an hour beforehand.

            From the evidence above I think it's more than likely that Kelly did not go out after she went in with Blotchy Face. Someone may have come to visit her that night. That someone may have been the man in the wideawake seen by Lewis looking up the court.

            Of course, as everyone knows, I completely discount the evidence of the man Hutchinson.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ben View Post
              Unless she didn't go out again afterwards, in which case it isn't so weird as we're left with a sleeping Kelly, rather than a loud, singing Kelly who mutates into a non-singing, hush-hush, tip-toeing Kelly
              In which case I find it strange that GH would be standing outside the entrance to Miller's court from 2:00 to 2:45. Was he waiting for Kelly to either come out or go in? Did he know she was in her room?

              How could the ripper have known that Mary was in her room? I find it highly unlikely that he would enter Mary's room on suspicion that she would be inside. Did he knock? How would the ripper now she was in the room if he was not blotchy-faced man and she never left the room after 1:20?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by IchabodCrane View Post
                How would the ripper now she was in the room if he was not blotchy-faced man and she never left the room after 1:20?
                Although he's not my man, it seems that the logical conclusion here, what might well be too obvious, is Blotchy. The insights presented so far on this thread seem to lead to him. That would certianly explain, for example, where the trick came from: he never left. They have their song and perhaps "dance," MJK goes to sleep and voila. Darkness. It seems to be the least problematized "solution."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Working on the hypothesis that Mary was sleeping in her room after 1:20, there are three possiblities:
                  1. The man with the carrroty moustache is the ripper
                  2. The ripper knocks and Mary opens the door for him. They are acquainted.
                  3. The ripper somehow knows that Mary is in her room and enters

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The thing is, (and I know he's my favourite candidate for Kelly's killing if not the others) that McCarthy is in situ as well. Prater talks to him at 1.30 am and he's still in his store. McCarthy doesn't seem to have been asked anything about this at the inquest, and Stewart Evans may have more of his original statement, but he is there and in a position probably to know how to open Kelly's room. If he has a reason to kill her, he can wait until there's no noise coming from her room. Wait maybe 10 minutes beyond that. Then creep in and kill her while she's drowsing off or completely asleep. That way there would be minimal noise and thrashing around.

                    I've always liked McCarthy for Kelly because there were so many unanswered questions about that back rent etc. I'm not married to the idea, but it makes slightly more sense than Blotchy Face hanging around for many encores of Kelly's favourite aria before killing her. Although I will admit that listening to saccharine parlour songs for over an hour would drive me to pick up a knife!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      H Ichabod,

                      In which case I find it strange that GH would be standing outside the entrance to Miller's court from 2:00 to 2:45. Was he waiting for Kelly to either come out or go in? Did he know she was in her room?
                      Two possibilities spring to mind here:

                      1) Hutchinson (or whoever the wideawake man was) had peered through Kelly's window hoping to find Kelly alone (for whatever reason). He sees Blotchy with her, and stations himself opposite the court in anticipation of him leaving, thus accounting for Lewis' observation that the man appeared to be waiting for someone to come out.

                      2) Wideawake and Blotchy were the same bloke (same physical particulars, same headgear), and he knew Kelly was alone on account of his "reconnasiance" mission of 11.45pm.

                      Best regards,
                      Ben

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Or heres a new one Ben, the man who was Wideawake was a mate of Blotchys, and came looking for him when he found out where he went. Waited a short time, but long enough to see if there was noise or light coming from that location. Figured Blotchy was hanging out for the night, and left. George/Flem/Hutchinson then used him to excuse his own presence there at some point.

                        Chava, I have an answer for you on Marys position...and I believe its one that does not involve Blotchy. Marys position on the bed was on its right side, close to the partition wall, her jugular blood splattered there. If she was on her right side, facing the wall, its one half of a sleeping, or maybe spoon position of a couple. It could also be for sex, but lets consider her inebriation and fatigue perhaps a factor here.

                        At approx 3:45 the voice is heard...perhaps at 3:44:55, a noise is made at Marys window, or door. Mary shuffles across the floor, releases the lock....Diddles wakes upstairs, and Mary opens the door to see someone she knows intimately, but at an hour she is not pleased to be waking at. She utters "oh-murder", turns, shuffles back to bed and inches over to the right side to allow her guest to lie behind her, and she closes her eyes and tries to get back to the sleep she needed after her festive night...its Mayors Day, and she needs some rest first. The irony is the day she so looked forward to is also the day she dies. Mary ends Mayors Day. He enters, shuts the door. Sits on the chair, and has a smoke...maybe from the clay pipe. She dozes off....waking as one hand grips her mouth, and she feels a knife at her throat, her hands flailing at it.

                        Shes dead at 4-4:15, killer leaves perhaps an hour later, maybe more... making boot sounds that Mary Ann hears.

                        The only glitch with this idea I have is Blotchy Man. Does he leave without being heard or seen, and if so, at what time would that be likely. I think the obvious time that works, is if he leaves just after Mary Ann walks out of the court a little after 1am. Mary settles down, blows out the candle partially undresses, falls back on her bed exhausted, and settles in. Elizabeth Prater then walks the stairs.

                        Cheers.
                        Last edited by Guest; 05-09-2008, 04:02 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Quite possible, Mike. Good thinking.

                          Hope all's well,

                          Ben

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Michael, that is absolutely possible. Blotchy Face could leave without anyone noticing because he's not part of the everyday life of the court. Whereas Kelly is. I don't know if I can go so far as to agree with the explanation of 'Oh Murder' But I never thought that came from Kelly anyway. There's too much evidence that she was killed while on the bed and asleep or nearly asleep for that.

                            But then of course I have to state my position that Kelly is either (a) not a Ripper victim but killed to make it look that way or (b) a Ripper victim but for different, more personal reasons than the others. Which I know is not a popular belief!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ben View Post
                              Quite possible, Mike. Good thinking.

                              Hope all's well,

                              Ben
                              Thanks mate, it is, as I hope is so with you. Between just you and I, ... I think Flem/Hutchinson may be our man. You seeded that idea...and its a good one. The more I try to put things in order, the more "well known man" as killer, and Curious George seem to collide.

                              What Im trying to assess is why he would voluntarily come forward...I know we've discussed many possibilities, but I cant help feel that he is using the Wideawake sighting. I dont think it was George/Joe. But if he assumes the role anyway, placing himself in the shoes of someone who is very suspicious, he must have had a compelling reason, other than to just jerk the investigation around...because that would cast too much light back on himself as the source of the story, very dangerous.

                              Maybe he needs to authenticate the notion that she entered with a man assumed a client, because thats the real pivotal issue with Mary as a Ripper victim, not her destruction....How did he meet up with her? Maybe Joe/George is not the Ripper....even with his Victoria Home address, ...but wants to be sure people are looking for Jack... who kills strangers, instead of someone close to home.

                              All the best Ben.

                              Comment

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