torso maps

[Abby Normal]

Therefore I’ll push it further, with no proof of this of course, there could have been ‘medical’ reasons for all the Torso killings. A madman with some kind of medical training who performed abortions (of which Jackson was a failed Example) he might even have been delusional enough to believe that he was doing some kind of valuable research. He then, because he might be linked to some of his victims, had to destroy their identities by dismemberment

For me, a pretty reasonable scenario which ‘explains’ all. Why can’t this be true apart from the fact of course that some don’t want it to be?

Hi HS
and this cant be applied to the ripper as well, because....???

[Herlock Sholmes]

No thanks I'll let the majority of people keep being ******* idiots and stand on the right side of history in this case

The only people in danger of being ******* idiots ( to use your words) on any ripper-related subject Rocky are those that believe that they have some prior claim on truth regarding events that took place 130 years ago. Those that think that they are categorically correct just because of over confidence in their own analysis of the known facts.

Calling people ****** idiots because they disagree with you is all anyone needs to know about the merits of your method of debating.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So the two serial killers operating in victorian London in 1888 both know how to remove a uterus?

Apparently.

Just as there may have been 2 bookmakers that could read hieroglyphs or 2 barrelmakers who could operate a loom or 2 surgeons that had sisters living in Paraguay.

You sound like the conspiracy theorist who constantly says “what are the chances of...”

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HS
and this cant be applied to the ripper as well, because....???

Hi Abby,

Because the ripper killed in the streets and left his victims in tact and on display.

[RockySullivan]

The only people in danger of being ******* idiots ( to use your words) on any ripper-related subject Rocky are those that believe that they have some prior claim on truth regarding events that took place 130 years ago. Those that think that they are categorically correct just because of over confidence in their own analysis of the known facts.

Calling people ****** idiots because they disagree with you is all anyone needs to know about the merits of your method of debating.

The Ripper and The Torso Killer were two different killers. Anyone who doesn't think so is an idiot.

[FrankO]

That if there hadn't been a "bump" there, the uterus might well have been left intact. Or, in other words, the removal of the uterus was effected largely as a by-product of wanting to remove the child, not as a "hysterectomy" in its own right, which was what happened in the majority of the Ripper murders.

I get you now, Gareth, thanks! And that's certainly a possibility. He may just have wanted to get rid of the "bump" in order to make the cutting up of the torso and dumping of the body parts more easy.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Abby,

Because the ripper killed in the streets

um Kelly anyone?

[RockySullivan]

Apparently.

Just as there may have been 2 bookmakers that could read hieroglyphs or 2 barrelmakers who could operate a loom or 2 surgeons that had sisters living in Paraguay.

You sound like the conspiracy theorist who constantly says “what are the chances of...”

Bookmakers, barrel makers and surgeons. We are talking about an aberration, not a profession mr sholmes.

edit: seriously that's your argument? 2 barrel makers could operate a loom?

[Sam Flynn]

He may just have wanted to get rid of the "bump" in order to make the cutting up of the torso and dumping of the body parts more easy.

I'd go with that, Frank. I've also suggested that he may have shied away from cutting through the baby out of some kind of warped conscience, so removed it - and its uterine casing - before proceeding to carve up the mother's body.

[Sam Flynn]

Pinchin St was Ripper territory, hence there was geographical overlap

Like I said, Pinchin Street was the sole exception. I should point out that none of the Ripper murders happened outside a tight little area of the East End, so if there was an overlap it only went one way.

So, not only in the same city but in the same corner of the East End.

In only one case, and that was an exception in that she was dumped close in time and space to a policeman's beat and sleeping tramps, both the victim's arms were still attached, and ISTR that no other body parts were found - not in the Thames or anywhere else. Not only that, but the nearest Ripper victim to Pinchin Street (Stride) was herself an exception in the series of 1888, and there is some doubt that she was a Ripper victim at all.

It would be rare enough to have two series of murders in the same country.

That is not strictly true, is it? Besides, there have been cases of multiple serial murderers operating in the same general time-frame in the same broad geographical area before. Note my words: "general" time-frame and "broad" geographical area, because that's what we're honestly dealing with when comparing TK and JTR.

Let alone the same square mile.

As I said, only ONE of the torso victims was found in the same part of London as the Ripper murders.

[Sam Flynn]

So the two serial killers operating in victorian London in 1888 both know how to remove a uterus?

Do you know how to cut meat? Then you, too, can remove a uterus if you put your mind to it. Who knows, you might even do it more successfully and consistently than Jack the Ripper, whose mileage varied between victims.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Because the ripper killed in the streets and left his victims in tact and on display.

Hello friend

but he removed the sexual organs of two of them-the uterus. and similar with Jackson.

I do agree with you that I think the torso man and the ripper could had some kind of medical training-if not surgery then at least anatomy.


Debs has been doing research that posited the idea that Jackson could have died as a result of a back street doctor accidently killing her-through poisoning or something -trying to abort her pregnancy. but not surgically.


of course that dosnt negate he killed the other torso victims or even the ripper victims. I think its an interesting avenue to explore.

[Abby Normal]

Apparently.

Just as there may have been 2 bookmakers that could read hieroglyphs or 2 barrelmakers who could operate a loom or 2 surgeons that had sisters living in Paraguay.

You sound like the conspiracy theorist who constantly says “what are the chances of...”

Hi HS
The thing that flips it for me-as Ive said im at about 70% thinking they are the same man-is the post mortem mutilation on the torso victims above and beyond what was needed for dismemberment only.

I used to think there was no way they were related at all until I learned of this.

the vertical gashes down the abdoman, missing uterus, internal organs etc. I mean dosnt that kind of eliminate possible other reasons for their murders?Like a serial killer whos fascination is only with dismemberment or that they were killed for more traditional motives and cut up just to aid in disposal?
Even the accidental death from a back street dr like i just mentioned?


to me it not only narrows the possible motives of the torso killer but shows another serial killer who likes to cut up and into the bodies of dead women--like the ripper.

if it weren't for these exteranneous mutilations-full disclosure-I would be under 50/50 they were the same man.

[RockySullivan]

Like I said, Pinchin Street was the sole exception. I should point out that none of the Ripper murders happened outside a tight little area of the East End, so if there was an overlap it only went one way.In only one case, and that was an exception in that she was dumped close in time and space to a policeman's beat and sleeping tramps, both the victim's arms were still attached, and ISTR that no other body parts were found - not in the Thames or anywhere else. Not only that, but the nearest Ripper victim to Pinchin Street (Stride) was herself an exception in the series of 1888, and there is some doubt that she was a Ripper victim at all.

That is not strictly true, is it? Besides, there have been cases of multiple serial murderers operating in the same general time-frame in the same broad geographical area before. Note my words: "general" time-frame and "broad" geographical area, because that's what we're honestly dealing with when comparing TK and JTR.
As I said, only ONE of the torso victims was found in the same part of London as the Ripper murders.

yes and this one torso had a 15 inch cut from pubes to sternum. it sounds like you are giving one the value of zero, which might be ******* up your whole equation

[Abby Normal]

yes and this one torso had a 15 inch cut from pubes to sternum. it sounds like you are giving one the value of zero, which might be ******* up your whole equation

exactly see my previous post